Cruising the racer?

[bedouin]

But this is the point - as this thread illustrates - nobody has been able to come up with any examples of people that race IRC competitively AND cruise that same boat.

That depends on what you mean by competitively. A lot of cruisers do occasionally race IRC but are not necessarily "competitive" - which is one of the problems of where the IRC rule is today. It is now very hard to transition from being a cruising sailor to racing under IRC.

You start off with the basic issue of handicap - many boats simply cannot be raced competitively because their rating is unrealistically high. The IRC rating system gives a massive advantage to boats that are designed to the rule; that automatically rules out 75% of the boats out there.

If you want racing to be an inclusive sport where sailing ability is more important than the size of the wallet then you need a rating system that gives an honest rating to as wide a range of boats as possible. Otherwise it becomes more exclusive where the ability of the skipper to pay becomes more important than sailing ability

 

[Birdseye]

But this is the point - as this thread illustrates - nobody has been able to come up with any examples of people that race IRC competitively AND cruise that same boat. So the current ethos of encouraging dual use boats to race IRC isn't working, as there aren't any! All that's happening is that keen racers cannot modify the interior of their boat to suit their needs. We can modify the exterior, add tweakers, inhaulers, uprated cordage, nice sails etc with no change to the rating. Stuff that does make the boat go faster makes no change to the rating, is massively expensive and does nothing to encourage participation by the cruiser if they don't have it - is a barrier in effect. But at the same time relocating a door to the aft cabin to stop it getting damaged is a 4 point hit!

Reality is that the "buy the tinware" brigade racing under IRC would simply do both if allowed to do so. Maybe the answer is to penalise things like fancy sails and cordage and crew numbers. The argument often put forward for IRC is that it rewards crews who improve. Sure but it also rewards wealth which is why I find it difficult to understand keen sailors not heading in droves for one design.

To me IRC is the middle ground between OD on the one hand and NHC on the other. OD is almost purely a sailing skill system. And after a series has been running for a while, NHC also repays skill improvement race by race., but unlike IRC it penalises heavy spending race by race as well. You can only buy a short term advantage.

You ought to go OD Flaming.

 

[flaming]

You ought to go OD Flaming.

We want to, but there isn't really a viable one. 109s are on the wain and it's way too heavy a boat to be an A-sail. J111 is not getting the numbers of new boats and is sooooo expensive. J88 could be one to watch, but fleet growth has been slow and in the meantime it's uncompetitive on IRC. Sigma 38 is not for us. MC38 was heavily promoted, press releases promising 8 boats on the line, it's own circuit, but now just one boat leased out to keep it sailing... In that sort of size range what does that leave? If I had a pound for every new design in the last 10 years to be touted as "the next Solent OD" that was never seen again, I could buy one!

For what it's worth I think IRC does a mainly good job. My beef is that it has as one of its core principals to encourage participation, but the only tools it seems to use to do this aren't bringing in cruisers, but are frustrating people like us who want to adapt the interior for the use we actually put the boat to!

 

[r_h]

But this is the point - as this thread illustrates - nobody has been able to come up with any examples of people that race IRC competitively AND cruise that same boat.

I can point to quite a few boats that are set up primarily for long distance short-handed offshore use that both race successfully (using proper race sails) with the silverware to prove it and are also cruised.

However, as far as inshore racing is concerned, I totally buy your point -- most crews would have a lot more fun if they didn't have to drag the bulk and weight of a few spare bedrooms that are never used round the course. But a stripped out lightweight boat is much less likely to have a competitive rating...

 

[Keen_Ed]

But a stripped out lightweight boat is much less likely to have a competitive rating...

And much higher depreciation, which is the bit that hacks off the PBO.

 

[r_h]

And much higher depreciation, which is the bit that hacks off the PBO.

I think that's partly a chicken and egg thing - if lightweight race boats have an unfavourable rating, then their value will drop quickly. However, with a more favourable rating they would be likely to maintain value for longer. One thing strongly in favour of IRC compared to IOR of old is that new designs don't become uncompetitive as quickly as used to be the case.

 

[RobbieW]

...For what it's worth I think IRC does a mainly good job. My beef is that it has as one of its core principals to encourage participation, but the only tools it seems to use to do this aren't bringing in cruisers, but are frustrating people like us who want to adapt the interior for the use we actually put the boat to!

I have the impression that race participation has slowly dropped over the last 10+ years, both IRC and NHC, with the exception of the OD J classes and that would be whichever model J Boats is pushing that year. This is mostly based on conversations with Warsash/HRSC race officers for the Spring/Winter series given its about 10 years since I regularly raced. I dont know whether Cowes still has the numbers it used to, certainly RiR does but thats special. As has been said here before, keeping a crew together for a series has become increasingly more difficult, especially when you get to the 40.7/Elan 410 size boats where 8-10 are necessary to do well.

 

[lw395]

Perhaps the answer is to forego the cruising luxuries of things like bulkhead and er, decks, and race something like an Etchells, Dragon, XOD etc?
I think some people have moved away from racing around the cans in oversized boats with half a dozen passengers on the rail?

 

[Keen_Ed]

A couple of years ago the Admiral of RORC cruised his boat (done lots of offshores) down to Malta for the Middle sea race.

 

[onesea]

The thing that stops me racing IRC is the cost. £120 to get the cert every year. Then making sure you have all the gear just so. soon mounts up. Particularly if your only looking at doing a handful of races a year...
Which lets face it is all most "part time" racers will do before becoming full time....

 

[Birdseye]

The thing that stops me racing IRC is the cost. £120 to get the cert every year. Then making sure you have all the gear just so. soon mounts up. Particularly if your only looking at doing a handful of races a year...
Which lets face it is all most "part time" racers will do before becoming full time....

But the true cost is way more than that. On occasion in the old PY days, the size of the IRC fleet meant they had to come in with the PY fleet and race off PY numbers. Trouble was, the starter PY number was hopelessly unrealistic and whilst you have to make some allowance for the IRC boys being generally both keener and better sailors, it was like putting greyhounds in amongst the terriers. The issue was the expensive IRC sails etc. No real point in spending on carbon sails in the PY fleet. No point in entering IRC without.

 

[Birdseye]

I have the impression that race participation has slowly dropped over the last 10+ years, both IRC and NHC, with the exception of the OD J classes and that would be whichever model J Boats is pushing that year. This is mostly based on conversations with Warsash/HRSC race officers for the Spring/Winter series given its about 10 years since I regularly raced. I dont know whether Cowes still has the numbers it used to, certainly RiR does but thats special. As has been said here before, keeping a crew together for a series has become increasingly more difficult, especially when you get to the 40.7/Elan 410 size boats where 8-10 are necessary to do well.

I can only speak for our area but here the IRC has declined whilst the NHC, ebbing and flowing a bit , has held steady or slowly increased.. To be expected I would have thought in times of economic hardship - the numbers of high income individuals willing to spend on a boat solely for racing must decline a bit. It will look up[ again as the economy picks up.

 

[jac]

I can only speak for our area but here the IRC has declined whilst the NHC, ebbing and flowing a bit , has held steady or slowly increased.. To be expected I would have thought in times of economic hardship - the numbers of high income individuals willing to spend on a boat solely for racing must decline a bit. It will look up[ again as the economy picks up.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I don't race at the moment but used to Dinghy race and would be keen to start, even have 4-5 guys that could probably be persuaded to crew regularly . The issue is that a pure cruiser is not suitable for racing so needs to be replaced by a cruiser racer. If I get one of those then it seems I need to either sell my children to afford a competitive IRC boat and keep it competitive ( assuming the crew are of course) or go into an NHC fleet. To get a boat large and comfortable enough for a 2 week family cruise suggests mid 30's feet length which needs a large crew and then the deck layout will either work for racing or cruising and for IRC will need a larger crew to manage ( logistic issues) and make the cruising harder.

Seems to make NHC most suitable for anyone who isn't a top flight racer, whether that is driven by needing a multi-use boat, not having a large well trained crew or finance.

 

[michael_w]

I used to race double handed both my Albin Ballad and Contessa 33 reasonably successfully albeit mainly offshore. The Ballad went to Brittany several times and the Contessa did an Atlantic circuit.

Inshore racing is best done in small one designs. Anything over 30' is a bit like racing an elephant, slow and ponderous.

 

[roblpm]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I don't race at the moment but used to Dinghy race and would be keen to start, even have 4-5 guys that could probably be persuaded to crew regularly . The issue is that a pure cruiser is not suitable for racing so needs to be replaced by a cruiser racer. If I get one of those then it seems I need to either sell my children to afford a competitive IRC boat and keep it competitive ( assuming the crew are of course) or go into an NHC fleet. To get a boat large and comfortable enough for a 2 week family cruise suggests mid 30's feet length which needs a large crew and then the deck layout will either work for racing or cruising and for IRC will need a larger crew to manage ( logistic issues) and make the cruising harder.

Seems to make NHC most suitable for anyone who isn't a top flight racer, whether that is driven by needing a multi-use boat, not having a large well trained crew or finance.

Seems like the most sustainable way forward is a syndicate sportsboat and a cruiser?!

Up here on the Forth it is NHC only (except they don't use it and use a Forth handicap system which is modified py I think).

The biggest OD fleet is Hunter 707s which are a bit ole but can muster up to 20 boats sometimes I think.

In the states it seems that there are large fleets of J70s and Melges 24s etc?

If I ever buy a proper cruising boat and wanted to continue racing you could do it for not much in a 707, and sooner or later there will be a replacement? Any large sports boat fleets down south or on the Clyde?

 

[jac]

Seems like the most sustainable way forward is a syndicate sportsboat and a cruiser?!

Up here on the Forth it is NHC only (except they don't use it and use a Forth handicap system which is modified py I think).

The biggest OD fleet is Hunter 707s which are a bit ole but can muster up to 20 boats sometimes I think.

In the states it seems that there are large fleets of J70s and Melges 24s etc?

If I ever buy a proper cruising boat and wanted to continue racing you could do it for not much in a 707, and sooner or later there will be a replacement? Any large sports boat fleets down south or on the Clyde?

I would agree until it then come to the cost of running two boats. Not too bad if the sportsboat can be kept on a mid river mooring for a few hundred pounds and regularly dried out for scrubbing but long waiting lists down here in the popular places for those and many clubs may be unwilling to let members have 2 moorings ( although a crew member / syndicate partner could maybe moor in their name) If you end up with a sportsboat in a marina then you're chucking a few extra grand a year at the costs in mooring / winter costs.

I've toyed with the idea of a single handed dinghy for racing locally but think dinghy racing days are over!

 

[flaming]

Seems like the most sustainable way forward is a syndicate sportsboat and a cruiser?!

Up here on the Forth it is NHC only (except they don't use it and use a Forth handicap system which is modified py I think).

The biggest OD fleet is Hunter 707s which are a bit ole but can muster up to 20 boats sometimes I think.

In the states it seems that there are large fleets of J70s and Melges 24s etc?

If I ever buy a proper cruising boat and wanted to continue racing you could do it for not much in a 707, and sooner or later there will be a replacement? Any large sports boat fleets down south or on the Clyde?

Solent wise the SB20 (the boat formerly known as the SB3) is well down in numbers, with the J70 picking up. 707 is nearing extinction, haven't seen one in the wild for years.

I do agree that the sportboat scene looks reasonably active. But I have to say I don't totally get it. I don't really see what advantages you get out of a J70 that you don't get from a dinghy. Just as wet, sometimes slower, more expensive, one more person. I guess less risk of capsize might be a factor? But unless you're prepared to keep it afloat (which is going to be slower) you still have to launch the thing (and you need a car to do that, not just drag it up a slipway by hand), the wind limits seem similar and you still have optimum weights.

To me the big argument in favour of yacht racing over small boat racing is how sociable it is. With 8-10 people on the boat, a pool of about 25 to call on at any given time and a gently refreshing crew, I must have sailed with over 100 people in the last 8 years on just one boat. A good number were people found on the internet and have become firm friends. And I bet the end of season "drink all the booze we've won this year" party is a tad more boisterous than the J70's equivalent. The other argument is about what you enjoy most out of racing. To me, and many like me, the teamwork aspect of 9 people working well together to get the boat round the course is a big part of why I race yachts. If I didn't like that bit I'd probably just race lasers.

 

[roblpm]

I would agree until it then come to the cost of running two boats. Not too bad if the sportsboat can be kept on a mid river mooring for a few hundred pounds and regularly dried out for scrubbing but long waiting lists down here in the popular places for those and many clubs may be unwilling to let members have 2 moorings ( although a crew member / syndicate partner could maybe moor in their name) If you end up with a sportsboat in a marina then you're chucking a few extra grand a year at the costs in mooring / winter costs.

I've toyed with the idea of a single handed dinghy for racing locally but think dinghy racing days are over!

True enough about the marina costs. Keeping a 707 in Port Edgar is only 25% less expensive than my 28 foot Parker 275 which seems very expensive! So that is no good!

I don't know as much as Flaming but actually the 707 scene up here is pretty sociable, 5 fully crewed (has a symmetric spinnaker), cheap to run and decent, fun racing. There must eventually be an equivalent?! Does the asymmetric fashion reduce the crew numbers?!

I suppose in a hot weather country getting wet wouldn't matter as much!!

 

[RobbieW]

...I've toyed with the idea of a single handed dinghy for racing locally but think dinghy racing days are over!

You're a Hamble sailor, have you considered the Foxers ? Much more wile than brawn involved there and a very competitive fleet

 

[jac]

You're a Hamble sailor, have you considered the Foxers ? Much more wile than brawn involved there and a very competitive fleet

I hadn't but good pointer.