Cruising Tax in Greece

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
this is not the experience of any of all the other cruisers we have met in Greece over the last two years. I have never talked to anyone that has been harassed for not having a stamp in each port.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi, well we just have different experiences. It seems to be a factor of where you are sailing. The Ionian is almost devoid of Port Police interuption. Then it seems the Port Police in the west and center of the Aegean are mostly very laid back and that it gets progressively worse the further east you get. When you get to Rhodes, you will meet the ultimate, ugly rule chugging, most aggressive Port Police there is.

As to your point that we should not take notice of what the Greek Government posts on the web..... well it happens to be a very true reflection on how the reality is, so I cannot just disregard it. There is no way you would get away with "a stamp every 30 days" in the Dodecanese. Don't try that, you can get in trouble.

Finally, there is a strategy that many cruisers employ here and that it is to totally disregard the rules; they will never get close to a Port Police office. Then you never have to get any stamps because you don't have any Greek documents in the first place. The chance of discovery is very low as the Port Police very seldom move outside their offices. Being a law abiding person, I would not recommend this. Hiowever, that strategy does save a lot of cruisers from severe agony.

 

[jimbaerselman]

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There is no way any normal country can function on the premise of having a large gulf between rules and application.

[/ QUOTE ] Greek law is largely codified - like the French and German systems. Broadly, this means that most activities and the rules governing them are prescribed . . . the rules are written . . . this takes time, and by the time they're published (nowadays especially) the world has moved on, so the rules can be out of date or irrelevant.

I often tell the story about introducing windsurfing as an activity into Greece. Windsurfers didn't exist as a category within the rules. But those longer than 2.5m could be classified as boats. Or canoes. The rules governing each were different.

Boats had to carry first aid books, flares, bouyancy rings. Canoes (or 'balancers' as they were translated) had specified bouyancy aids which had to be worn (which made paddling almost impossible) and (I think) had to carry a spare paddle. Either way it was impossible to apply the law to windsurfing. The law was routinely broken either way (so a monthly fine was normal!).

This type of problem is common, and normal, in prescriptive legal systems. The law is not applied in many fields, because it is out of date. It is common for Greeks to comment that it impossible to meet all the requirements of the law if you're in business.

This is not a sign of a failed state. It's the sign of lag in the legal system, and shortcomings of codified legal systems. France, in particular, suffers similar problems.

The UK common law system is more flexible, but less accessible, and also has some well out of date laws which are ignored . . .

 

[jimbaerselman]

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There is no way you would get away with "a stamp every 30 days" in the Dodecanese. Don't try that, you can get in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, last year I tested the system to see how it worked. I left Kalamata at the end of May, sailed across to the Dodecanese, spent three weeks working north from Rhodes to Samos, then returned to Kalamata.

I had the following stamps - out of K, in and out of Rhodes, and in and out of Samos into K. I also carried a note from the Kalamata port police (which I didn't have to produce) confirming that they had told me I only needed to check in every 30 days.

Thr routine in Rhodes was appalling (I've described it to you in the past) which included the young female trainee being shouted at and reduced to tears by her superior for taking a sensible short cut in the routine.

But there was no comment about the seven day gap from Kalamata. Nor was there any comment in Samos about the three week gap working north through the islands. OK, so I had my note 'in case'.

A good strategy is to keep note of where you have been briefed on the 30 day rule, and suggest to your local policeman that he phones them and asks why they gave a wrong briefing. Worked a treat in Syros on our way over. But the police always have an option to require you to report. However, the onus of initiating the visit now rests with the police, rather than you.

 

[jimbaerselman]

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I cruised Greece for 7 months in 2006 and I have cleared into Greece four times this year for a total visit of five weeks. What is your recent experience of dealing with the Port Police?

[/ QUOTE ] Continuous for nearly 30 years, rounded off with the last 5 (of 10 years living aboard), ending in 2006. Only 4 weeks so far this year, two more booked . . .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Hi Just had a look at my docs last time it was stamped was 20/06/04. I just put my hand up in the air and say sorry, they then dismiss me with a smile. I travel all over the Greek islands vist Turkey and do not have the problems, that you list on this forum .nor can I get the low prices that you seem to quote, regarding cheap marinas in Turkey.Try stopping being Mr Englishman, abroad ,it may help. cheers Bobt

 

[LadyJessie]

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Well, last year I tested the system to see how it worked. I left Kalamata at the end of May, sailed across to the Dodecanese, spent three weeks working north from Rhodes to Samos, then returned to Kalamata.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I have had good experiences as well. But one trip does not prove your point.

I am sorry if I have created the impression that every encounter with the Port Police is unpleasant. That is not true, there are some very laid back and pleasant officers out there (most of them young and female). But having spent the last three years almost full time cruising Greece, you get a lot of encounters with the rules and the Police and you will see both the good and the bad. If I was to summarize my experience and rate the possibility of an unpleasant encounter (somewhat simplified going west to east): in the Ionian no problems, in the Saronic Gulf only Poros could be a problem but it will be based on certain individuals only, in the Aegean west of Naxos I would rate your chances at less than 1 in 10 of having a problem, thereafter it gets more dicey; northern Dodecanese is good, say 1 in 6 problem rate, but south of Leros the rate goes up to about 1 in 4, Kos is really bad with a 75% chance of trouble and then finally Symi and Rhodes have a close to 100% rate of very difficult and unpleasant Port Police.

Hope this throws a better light on the problem. But let me once again repeat what I said further above; the base problem are the rules not the Police. There are just some very unpleasant personalities that grab the rules and tries to enforce them at a 110% rate. If those stupid rules where not there, they would have less of a chance to create trouble for you.

 

[Glyka]

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Get all those half-finished marinas (built with EU infrastructure money) that dot the country up an running! Now they are just an eye sore. If you finish them; you have a chance to give Turkey a run for their money!


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You don't get the point. With even the same prices, due to the big difference in labour cost, Greece is at best even money whereas Turkey makes a big profit.

Our (Greece's) marinas and islands are full. I, for example, don't want to attract any more boats and I think neither does the governement. People with wealth you said? One's wealth is unimportant. It's one's spending that is important to the economy. And don't tell me that boaters are any big spenders...

 

[jimbaerselman]

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But one trip does not prove your point

[/ QUOTE ] Interesting way of describing 29 years of continuous experience of dealing with the Greek port authorities.

Your post describes the situation quite well, and in much more tolerant terms than some of your earlier posts.

Your criticism, in a nutshell, is that the law, designed for large commercial vessels, grossly over-regulates leisure sailing. I agree. It's actually a lot worse than has been indicated so far. For instance, the law requires all vessels over 7m approaching the coast anywhere in Greece and mooring or anchoring are to report to the port police within 1 hour, and then report their intention to depart not more than 2 hours before departing. This is impossible for a yacht anchoring more than 1nm from a port police office.

The port police throughout recognise this situation is ridiculous, and I praise them for finding various ways around their dilemna. It's a pity they're not consistent, but I haven't heard of any fines actually being presented to any EU yachts over the last 2 years.

 

[LadyJessie]

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It's a pity they're not consistent, but I haven't heard of any fines actually being presented to any EU yachts over the last 2 years.

[/ QUOTE ]We got a bit heated in our debate here, didn't we. I, just as you, do not like to have my long earned experience questioned. We both have good and bad experiences.

And yes, you a correct. I have not heard of any fines either. My experience is that the Port Police totally skip over this point and go straight to threaths of confiscating your yacht. A lot of hot air in the end, but could still be very frightening. At least I know I was at the prospect of losing my boat.

 

[LadyJessie]

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With even the same prices, due to the big difference in labour cost, Greece is at best even money whereas Turkey makes a big profit.
Our (Greece's) marinas and islands are full.

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Glyka, have you heard of the expression "lies. damn lies and statistics"? Your statistics of average earnings in Greece and Turkey are correct. However, when reading the numbers you have to remember that Turkey is a very large country with a large agrarian population in its center and east that do not earn much. The western part of Turkey and especially the coastal areas (where we all sail) are very prosperous and salary levels are very comparable to those in Greece. So I reject your statement that Turkey is any sort of "rip-off".

If you think that Greece is "full" and you don't want my money; that is perfectly fine with me. I know I can spend it elsewhere.

 

[Glyka]

Good luck efendim.

 

[LadyJessie]

It seems that the attitude problem is not only to be found within the Port Police in Greece.

 

[Glyka]

Indeed /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif