Croatian Government Response to Anchoring Near Concession Area

[crisjones]

Recently a good friend of ours anchored in Zaljev Pantera, on the N end of Dugi Otok, there are a number of mooring buoy concession areas around this bay. Our friend was anchored well outside the 150m distance away from any mooring buoys but the concession holder still insisted they had to pay for anchoring. Our friends left rather than pay the dubious charge.
They reported the problem to the Croatian Ministry and below is an email reply from the Croatian Ministry of the Sea, Transport and Infrastructure (I have removed friends name and email):

From: Anđelko Petrinić <Andelko.Petrinic@pomorstvo.hr>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 at 16:09
Subject: FW: How to proceed - Concession Holder demands fee in anchorage
To: XXXX
Dear Mr. XXXX,
sorry for the delayed response.
Regarding Your questions, I inform You as follows:

A) Official consessioned area is strictly designated area. If You anchored in the bay beyond the coordinates point, and there was no signs that suggest that anchoring is forbidden, You should have been able to anchor your boat there.
B) Concession company has no authority or legal basis for charging anchoring fees outside of their concessed area. If such situation should repeat, please contact jurisdictional Harbormasters’ offices for help.

I am glad that You are having a great time in Croatia despite the incident and hope that it will not happen again.
Best of luck,
Sincerely


Anđelko Petrinić dipl.ing.
pomoćnik ministra
________________________________________
Ministarstvo mora, prometa i infrastrukture
Uprava pomorske I unutarnje plovidbe, brodarstva, luka i pomorskog dobra
Prisavlje 14, 10 000 Zagreb, HRVATSKA

Telefon: +385 (0)1 6169 070
Fax.: +385 (0)1 6195 956
Mail: andelko.petrinic@pomorstvo.hr

It seems pretty clear that the Ministry do not condone the practice of trying to charge boats for anchoring near concession areas provided they are at least 150m away. They also make it clear the concession holder has no authority or legal basis to levy these charges.

Maybe if we all email the Ministry or contact the relevant Harbourmaster whenever we come across such dubious attempts to charge for anchoring then the Ministry "may" contact the concession holder and warn them about their conduct.

May also be worth having a printed copy of the email to produce to any concession holder who is trying it on!!

 

[RichardS]

The problem with that bay is that it is almost totally enclosed with a radius of around 300m and buoys all around the edge and some well towards the middle. If you want to anchor on less than 15m you are bound to be within a couple of hundred metres of a buoy so it becomes a bit of a gamble as to whose measurements are more accurate.

When we were there on a buoy there last year I pointed out to my wife that the various concessionary holders had stitched up any anchorers by sticking a couple of random buoys towards the middle. Whether those random buoys are in the official mooring field or stuck out as outliers to trap the unwary is another question, of course.

Richard

 

[crisjones]

Hi Richard,

Hopefully we are talking about the same bay (Pantera) on the NW end of Dugi Otok, this bay is around 500m radius so it should be fairly easy to get more than 150m from the mooring buoys although I accept that it is certainly 15m deep towards the centre. Maybe there are now more Concession areas than I have information about hence your comment about the difficulty of getting 150m away.
Certainly Uvala Cuna to the S of Veli Rat is only about 500m diameter with buoys on both sides, so near impossible to anchor 150m away from the buoys.
The boundary co-ordinates of the buoy fields are given in the Croatian Ministry Excel Spreadsheet so it should be fairly easy to ascertain if any rogue buoys are positioned outside the official boundaries. I would think the Ministry may be unhappy to receive reports of buoys being located in the wrong areas.
With a little bit of conversion work I have translated the mooring buoy field coordinates from the Ministry spreadsheet into GPX format that can be imported into Open CPN, it is then very easy to check if you are far enough away.
Unfortunately the Ministry spreadsheet does not seem to be maintained so any new concessions are not recorded hence the information is not as complete as it might be.
Regardless of that having an official email from the Ministry may be helpful in subduing some of the more dubious claims for anchoring fees from the concession holders, I am sure they would not be too keen on having email reports sent to the Ministry.
The only way to counteract these unlawful practices by the Concession Holders is to report any violations to the relevant Authorities.

 

[RupertW]

Hi Richard,

Hopefully we are talking about the same bay (Pantera) on the NW end of Dugi Otok, this bay is around 500m radius so it should be fairly easy to get more than 150m from the mooring buoys although I accept that it is certainly 15m deep towards the centre. Maybe there are now more Concession areas than I have information about hence your comment about the difficulty of getting 150m away.
Certainly Uvala Cuna to the S of Veli Rat is only about 500m diameter with buoys on both sides, so near impossible to anchor 150m away from the buoys.
The boundary co-ordinates of the buoy fields are given in the Croatian Ministry Excel Spreadsheet so it should be fairly easy to ascertain if any rogue buoys are positioned outside the official boundaries. I would think the Ministry may be unhappy to receive reports of buoys being located in the wrong areas.
With a little bit of conversion work I have translated the mooring buoy field coordinates from the Ministry spreadsheet into GPX format that can be imported into Open CPN, it is then very easy to check if you are far enough away.
Unfortunately the Ministry spreadsheet does not seem to be maintained so any new concessions are not recorded hence the information is not as complete as it might be.
Regardless of that having an official email from the Ministry may be helpful in subduing some of the more dubious claims for anchoring fees from the concession holders, I am sure they would not be too keen on having email reports sent to the Ministry.
The only way to counteract these unlawful practices by the Concession Holders is to report any violations to the relevant Authorities.

I wonder who the "jurisdictional Harbourmasters" are and how to contact them as the ministry seemed friendly (assuming a second hand email is genuine, and outside yachting circles would be the sign of a fake) but the ministry did nothing and promised nothing.

 

[crisjones]

I wonder who the "jurisdictional Harbourmasters" are and how to contact them as the ministry seemed friendly (assuming a second hand email is genuine, and outside yachting circles would be the sign of a fake) but the ministry did nothing and promised nothing.

Not sure why you are questioning the validity of the email, I certainly would not post it if I had any doubts about it's authenticity.

Details for the jurisdictional Harbourmasters can be found at http://www.mppi.hr/default.aspx?id=667 if you click on the town name you can also get a list of all the branch offices. Although email info is not given on this website it is easy to find via a Google search so it is pretty easy to get in touch with the right office.

 

[RichardS]

Hi Richard,

Hopefully we are talking about the same bay (Pantera) on the NW end of Dugi Otok, this bay is around 500m radius so it should be fairly easy to get more than 150m from the mooring buoys although I accept that it is certainly 15m deep towards the centre. Maybe there are now more Concession areas than I have information about hence your comment about the difficulty of getting 150m away.

Yes, it is that bay. My 300m radius was from memory but you're right that it's more like 450m. The problem is that when they stick a mooring buoy a couple of hundred meters off the shore as a "spoiler" you are rather running out of room. :ambivalence:

Actually, that's made me think about a discussion we were having onboard a couple of hours ago as we came into Rogoznica.

As we passed to the East of the causeway we could see that all the mooring buoys were taken (one of them still has Vic's name on it!) and that there were around half a dozen boats anchored alongside those on the buoys. We decided to carry on to the end of the bay about a half a mile further and have discovered a gem of an anchorage. it's withing easy dinghy reach of Rocoznica but without the charges or the noise. The water is shallower that the mooring buoy anchorage and the holding is excellent. I wish we'd discovered this years ago ..... although, having said that, the last time we came to Rogoznica by boat there were no buoys anyway and it was free anchoring.

Anyway, the discussion was, if you anchor by the moorings buoys you have to pay the fee ..... but what if they are all taken? I can understand that if one is free and you choose not to take it then the law is on the side of the buoy owner .... but if he comes over the charge you and you say you're happy to pay for a buoy so please find me one, and he can't because they're all gone, does the law then give him any right to charge?

We've never found ourselves in that situation but a lot of boats I can see from here (or I could until it went dark) are in the situation tonight.

Richard

 

[sailaboutvic]

I wonder who the "jurisdictional Harbourmasters" are and how to contact them as the ministry seemed friendly (assuming a second hand email is genuine, and outside yachting circles would be the sign of a fake) but the ministry did nothing and promised nothing.

Rupert , knowing Chris well he not the type of guy to report stuff he wasn't sure it's true ,
I have to agree with him if more people wrote to the ministry sooner or later they would do some thing about these charges .
But it's always been the case where people just can't be borthered , thinking nothing will get done , so we can only blame ourself . I know when I complained about one guy who tryed to charge me for anchoring ( he ended up going away with empty pocket ) I was offered a free night on their buoy the next night .

 

[sailaboutvic]

Yes, it is that bay. My 300m radius was from memory but you're right that it's more like 450m. The problem is that when they stick a mooring buoy a couple of hundred meters off the shore as a "spoiler" you are rather running out of room. :ambivalence:

Actually, that's made me think about a discussion we were having onboard a couple of hours ago as we came into Rogoznica.

As we passed to the East of the causeway we could see that all the mooring buoys were taken (one of them still has Vic's name on it!) and that there were around half a dozen boats anchored alongside those on the buoys. We decided to carry on to the end of the bay about a half a mile further and have discovered a gem of an anchorage. it's withing easy dinghy reach of Rocoznica but without the charges or the noise. The water is shallower that the mooring buoy anchorage and the holding is excellent. I wish we'd discovered this years ago ..... although, having said that, the last time we came to Rogoznica by boat there were no buoys anyway and it was free anchoring.

Anyway, the discussion was, if you anchor by the moorings buoys you have to pay the fee ..... but what if they are all taken? I can understand that if one is free and you choose not to take it then the law is on the side of the buoy owner .... but if he comes over the charge you and you say you're happy to pay for a buoy so please find me one, and he can't because they're all gone, does the law then give him any right to charge?

We've never found ourselves in that situation but a lot of boats I can see from here (or I could until it went dark) are in the situation tonight.

Richard

Is that buoy with my name on it still there , don't remind me richard ,
I think that the closed I ever got from getting arrested .
I have to say , the three times we been approached for an anchoring fee , after the first min of conversation and then knowing I got no intention of given them my hard earned cash they gone away without any problem .
Although Rogozinica was a very different story . But it never fails to amaze me when there a good anchorages near by people will head straight for the mooring buoys and pay these stupid charges ,

 

[Roberto]

This owner of the mooring concession had his personal idea how to deal with anchoring point distances and people not wanting to pay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22GIte-bmK0&feature=youtu.be

 

[alexsailor]

I posted that (and some other information about that incident) in this thread:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?482506-Anchoring-rights/page7

Since I am sailing in summer in Greece (two months) and I keep my boat in a Croatian marina I can say a lot about that.
Actually this topic pops out almost every summer and than we have a live debate.
But nobody can convince me the other way: Croatians have gone mad.
With prices, with attitude....
Maybe we should make another thread "anchoring and mooring in Croatia". I have lots of stories to tell...

And in this incident it was not that Italians did not want to pay!
They were legaly out of the area where it must be paid for anchoring!
Look my other posts and translate croatian web portals.

 

[Carmel2]

This owner of the mooring concession had his personal idea how to deal with anchoring point distances and people not wanting to pay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22GIte-bmK0&feature=youtu.be

Happy holidays!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Alex what I can't understand is why the skipper stood for all that , I would had no problem dealing with that guy .
As far as I am considered he putting my boat in danger and as a skipper I am in my right to do what ever need to be done to stop that happening .
It be interesting to hear what the out come was if any .

 

[Roberto]

I posted that (and some other information about that incident) in this thread:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?482506-Anchoring-rights/page7

Since I am sailing in summer in Greece (two months) and I keep my boat in a Croatian marina I can say a lot about that.
Actually this topic pops out almost every summer and than we have a live debate.
But nobody can convince me the other way: Croatians have gone mad.
With prices, with attitude....
Maybe we should make another thread "anchoring and mooring in Croatia". I have lots of stories to tell...

And in this incident it was not that Italians did not want to pay!
They were legaly out of the area where it must be paid for anchoring!
Look my other posts and translate croatian web portals.

Sorry Alex I had not seen it

My first sailing memories of then Yugoslavia date back to mid-70s, last time I went was iirc in 2000ish, not sure I would be able to go again. Marvellous places though

 

[alexsailor]

@sailaboutvic
Italians called the police and port police (kapetanija in CRO).
They said that they know the guy and he is making problems... So?!? That's it?
Belive me if chargers were pressed (maybe they did it), nothing will happen in mafia land such as Croatia.

Do you rember a case several summers ago when "famous" croatian enterprenour Hrovatinčič killed two italian sailiors while they were sailing because he was speeding with his motorboat and had a mistress onboard and he proabably was getting a great blowjob...
Well the son of the killed parents went to court and what happened? Second trial: not guilty!!!
http://www.total-croatia-news.com/n...ot-guilty-to-murder-of-italian-boating-couple

Come on.. He is connected to croatian high politics... Sorry, can not find all the articles in english regarding his modus operandi.

This is the way things are "resolved" in Croatia. Proabably worst than Somalia...
So @vic, what will you do? Struggle that ex soldier with post traumatic stress sindrom?
I guess not.
Argue him? Come on. Your dinghy will disappear in the night or something worse...

Is this the only case in Croatia?
Hell no!

Not many are recorded but there a some (I'll try to find them... now I try to enjoy my GT time...)

@Roberto
It is a lovely sailing area buy unfortunately Croatians gone mad...

 

[sailaboutvic]

@sailaboutvic
Italians called the police and port police (kapetanija in CRO).
They said that they know the guy and he is making problems... So?!? That's it?
Belive me if chargers were pressed (maybe they did it), nothing will happen in mafia land such as Croatia.

Do you rember a case several summers ago when "famous" croatian enterprenour Hrovatinčič killed two italian sailiors while they were sailing because he was speeding with his motorboat and had a mistress onboard and he proabably was getting a great blowjob...
Well the son of the killed parents went to court and what happened? Second trial: not guilty!!!
http://www.total-croatia-news.com/n...ot-guilty-to-murder-of-italian-boating-couple

Come on.. He is connected to croatian high politics... Sorry, can not find all the articles in english regarding his modus operandi.

This is the way things are "resolved" in Croatia. Proabably worst than Somalia...
So @vic, what will you do? Struggle that ex soldier with post traumatic stress sindrom?
I guess not.
Argue him? Come on. Your dinghy will disappear in the night or something worse...

Is this the only case in Croatia?
Hell no!

Not many are recorded but there a some (I'll try to find them... now I try to enjoy my GT time...)

@Roberto
It is a lovely sailing area buy unfortunately Croatians gone mad...

Alex we once had a problem that got a bit out of hand in Croatia , the guy did get threatened, but once I stood up to him and the base ball bat came out , all he did was given me a mouth of bad language and pissed off , the other two times I was approached for anchoring fees , the guy just left went I refused to pay , all three time I was out side any mooring fields . Going back to the Italian boat , that was well out of hand , I would had no problem to do what ever needed to be done .
Ok I may not had stay there after that in fear that he be back with his mates .
The real problem is these people are aloud to get away with it and not being reported ,
you say nothing will be done , I disagree . Croatia don't want to lost the million of euros it earns because a few yob , it's nothing to do with mafia ,

 

[alexsailor]

@vic

Ok. You are a tough guy. But that is not the way we want to spend our time anchoring?
I also keep some "weapons" on board like 500ml peper spray for bears... But if I use it in defence I do not think that a local policeman will appriciate that.

You can disagree that nothing will be done but I gave a link to "Hrovatinčič case". So? Any comment on that?
This is how things are "resolved" in Croatia. And that is because he knows someone that knows someone... that is the definition of mafia...

Croatia will not loose their touristic milions... People are dumm enough to pay.
So that is why the word must be spoken!

As told before: Croatia is Disneyland for charter boats. And people on charter boats (mostly with no experience) pay for mooring buoys, marinas etc..
And Croatia is NOT a free country to sail. I can not choose a bay that I want and anchor there because it is very possible that this bay has a bouy field.

Than people start telling me: there are plenty of bays where you can anchor for free. Come on. The most beautiful and well protected bays are stucked with bouys.
Every year there are more fields.

And I can go on and on with arguments, facts.

Do you know the price for one night on island Ilovik? 30 HRK per meter. That is 4 eur per meter. So for a 12m boat you pay 48 eur per night on a bouy that is not even insured in case the rope breaks and you go on rocks. Hm?
But nobody will say anything about insurance... Just pay and enjoy "the sun".

Do you know that from this year on in Lastovo island which they claim to be na "natural park", rangers collect every day 130 HRK aprox. 18eur for entering (either anchoring or mooring- but mooring you have to pay extra) for a 12m boat? This is now per boat lenght. It used to be per person. But is easier for them to check the meters of the boat rather then counting persons on board.
And that is perfect for a charter boat. Ten people on 43 footer... They do not mind paying that.
But nobody gives a f.... for an owner's boat (two people on 43 footer).

That is the way it is in Croatia. Money, money, money.

I

 

[sailaboutvic]

@vic

Ok. You are a tough guy. But that is not the way we want to spend our time anchoring?
I also keep some "weapons" on board like 500ml peper spray for bears... But if I use it in defence I do not think that a local policeman will appriciate that.

You can disagree that nothing will be done but I gave a link to "Hrovatinčič case". So? Any comment on that?
This is how things are "resolved" in Croatia. And that is because he knows someone that knows someone... that is the definition of mafia...

Croatia will not loose their touristic milions... People are dumm enough to pay.
So that is why the word must be spoken!

As told before: Croatia is Disneyland for charter boats. And people on charter boats (mostly with no experience) pay for mooring buoys, marinas etc..
And Croatia is NOT a free country to sail. I can not choose a bay that I want and anchor there because it is very possible that this bay has a bouy field.

Than people start telling me: there are plenty of bays where you can anchor for free. Come on. The most beautiful and well protected bays are stucked with bouys.
Every year there are more fields.

And I can go on and on with arguments, facts.

Do you know the price for one night on island Ilovik? 30 HRK per meter. That is 4 eur per meter. So for a 12m boat you pay 48 eur per night on a bouy that is not even insured in case the rope breaks and you go on rocks. Hm?
But nobody will say anything about insurance... Just pay and enjoy "the sun".

Do you know that from this year on in Lastovo island which they claim to be na "natural park", rangers collect every day 130 HRK aprox. 18eur for entering (either anchoring or mooring- but mooring you have to pay extra) for a 12m boat? This is now per boat lenght. It used to be per person. But is easier for them to check the meters of the boat rather then counting persons on board.
And that is perfect for a charter boat. Ten people on 43 footer... They do not mind paying that.
But nobody gives a f.... for an owner's boat (two people on 43 footer).

That is the way it is in Croatia. Money, money, money.

I

Alex first I not tough guy , with my high bloody pressure I try hard theses days to talk nice to people and work problems out that way BUT yes BUT I can tell you there no way that guy in the video would had done that to me without him ending up in the water or in hospital, I love to see him to that to Chtis / David or Gary who cruising this year ,

The case you pointed out happen to be a guy with plenty of money and we know money talks , not only in Croatia , we had cases like this in England no doubts in lots of other country including yours . So it's not a good exsample.
But you have hit the nail on the head with your comment about charter , six or in some case ten people on a boat , their not going to blink an eye lid to pay 50 or 80 euros , 8 euros each , no problem but to you and me it a lot to pay , that's why we keep away from these places ,

although some times we get caught out , then we move on or if we in the right we stand our ground , if more people did that , sooner or late these guy would give in or at less would try and pull the stunt they pull now .

As far as free anchoring go , you only have to go to my site , there at less 50/60 and I not touch the surface , Croatia a big place .

Look I know your a big fan of Greece but that having some big chance now , it no long a free cruising ground , there very little harbour where you can go for free any more , some are charging 20 to 30 euros for a town quay where there no water or power and you have to use your own anchor ,
Other are charging two day for one night , it the way thing are , the charter market have killed free cruising ,

what has to be said about Croatia is , if any thing it's getting better where in Greece it's getting worst . What people need to do is stand there ground and report this stuff , but I bet my bottom dollar you and others don't and if you don't , then really you can't expect anything to get done .

 

[RichardS]

Do you rember a case several summers ago when "famous" croatian enterprenour Hrovatinčič killed two italian sailiors while they were sailing because he was speeding with his motorboat and had a mistress onboard and he proabably was getting a great blowjob...
Well the son of the killed parents went to court and what happened? Second trial: not guilty!!!
http://www.total-croatia-news.com/n...ot-guilty-to-murder-of-italian-boating-couple

I took this photo only last year. The boat has never been moved because of the interminable legal case.

Very sad.

Richard