Crisis, help urgently needed.

[Graham_Wright]

We've considered that. An inflatable would, I think, not be sufficiently stable. We have not "come across" a small boat. An RN type alongside raft (can't remember the name) would be ideal.

But you could use any large floating platform, if the marina has a spare pontoon you could secure alongside that would work. Or if the docks has a painting catamaran that sort of thing would also work.

Ross[/QUOTE]

There is a stack of spare pontoons on the dockside. Brilliant idea;- I will forward it.

 

[Ross D]

Don't know about this. I did not use fins and I carried 16Kg of weights. My jacket was auto inflating (a fault supposedly fixed by the dive shop but is intermittent and has caused a few problems in the past). Disconnecting the inflation hose fixed that but I still had little traction on the bottom. At such a shallow depth, there was no real opportunity for the wetsuit to lose its buoyancy. Fortunately, there is not much hindrance to movement.

A basic cave diving setup is to have 2 completely independant DV rigs hung from a harness with each cylinder alongside the bottle so you can reach the bottle valve whilst underwater. You should have both DVs secured to a loop around your neck, one on each side. This link sort of shows how it should be done.

http://www.protecexpedition.com/images/jurek1.jpg

Unfortunately most photos of cave diving are in huge clear open passages, not the zero vis sqeezing through gaps bit which would help in your situation.

This set up give you access to all the vital bits of your diving kit and can be fairly easily adapted from normal diving kit using a STAB jacket to hang the bottles from.

Ross

 

[Ross D]

I see the sense in this;- the action and reaction are to a large extent cancelled. In fact, hammering in the wedges was difficult because of shortage of hands;- one to hold on with, one for the torch, one for the wedge and one for the hammer. Because there was a small amount of light filtering in from the water outside, the torch could be left dangling whilst wielding the hammer.

Slide hammers are pretty cheap, but one you have seen one they are very easy to make with a bit of bar and a circular weight with a hole in the middle.

http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool-warehouse/OTC-1155.html

You can buy large round brass weights with a hole in the middle for holding waterlillies down in ponds. Or use a weight lifiting weight.

Ross

I hope these suggestions help.

 

[chinita]

Whilst all the folk contributing and undoubtedly well meaning it is beginning to look like the proverbial camel being a horse designed by a committee. It seems to me that this is going to have to be a commercial operation.

Are there not Salvage Consultants around from whom you could commission some professional advice? You don't have to commit yourself full on at this stage but surely there are experts around who would have the options for you to consider. What is that going to cost? Not a lot in the greater scheme of things and at least you will get the job done.

Meanwhile, my heart bleeds for you and I hope the solution is not too long in coming.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Whilst all the folk contributing and undoubtedly well meaning it is beginning to look like the proverbial camel being a horse designed by a committee. It seems to me that this is going to have to be a commercial operation.

Are there not Salvage Consultants around from whom you could commission some professional advice? You don't have to commit yourself full on at this stage but surely there are experts around who would have the options for you to consider. What is that going to cost? Not a lot in the greater scheme of things and at least you will get the job done.

Meanwhile, my heart bleeds for you and I hope the solution is not too long in coming.

Mark has struck up acquaintanceship with a local dredger operator who is proving invaluable. As I write, he is on his way from the pump hire people at Winsford with a second 4" pump. He will pump the engine room and steering compartment to a level where he can seal the starboard fuel tank (currently with inspection hatch off) and leave it full. He will drain the port one if it is full and between the two thus should ensure stability towards the dockside (she is starboard side to).

At some point, she will start to lift but the engine needs to be left covered until preparations are made to rescue it.

He has also sought the help of a local professional diver (rather his life than mine!) but he has so far failed to turn up.

 

[NickRobinson]

This last Saturday could have contributed?

ASSOCIATED BRITISH PORTS FLEETWOOD

SLUICING OF THE DOCK CHANNEL


MARINERS ARE ADVISED THAT SLUICING OF THE DOCK CHANNEL WILL TAKE PLACE OVER THE LW PERIOD AFTER THE FOLLOWING H.W. TIDE TIMES: -

Thursday 25th April 2013 11.31hrs. BST
Friday 26th April 2013 12.12hrs . BST
Saturday 27th April 2013 12.55hrs . BST


TRAWLER SKIPPERS ARE REQUESTED TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS SUFFICIENT SCOPE IN THEIR MOORINGS TO ALLOW FOR THE FALL IN DOCK LEVEL.

 

[mtb]

just as an aside
Those pump up ratchet props used for plaster boarding ceilings are both light and strong you can extend em to the length required and with a bit of ply lined up tighten their cheap from machine mart and even one handed you can pump while holding
oh and if its lifting get tarp's dragged along easy enough with two acting in a sawing manner
cheers
mick

 

[PaulMcC]

Graham,
Just read the thread and a couple of thoughts which might be helpful.
Firstly, soft mud is just about the worst bottom type to try to lift things from. From my experience which is all with lifting much smaller stuff (up to a tonne or so) breaking the seal between the sand or mud bottom and the bottom of the object being lifted takes a suprising amount of extra effort. I suspect the extra lift required scales with area rather than weight but lifting 50 gallon drums full of concrete from fine sand required about twice as much lifting force as you would expect from a simple weight/displacement calculation alone. Because of this, for small lifts there are various other tactic to 'unstick' the object such as rocking the object or injecting air beneath it.
To be honest I'm not sure those ideas will work for you but worth being aware that you may need to create a lot more lift than you expect before anything happens. (At least in your case, when stuff starts to move it is unlikely to accelerate up out of control.)

Have you considered that it will be far easier to line the inside of your semi-watertight spaces (engine room and so on) with plastic tarp and then fill with air so that the air pressure sticks the tarp to the inside of each space rather than try to fix any covering externally. If you do this, suggest you think very carefully about how to get the tarps in place safely, dry runs of unfolding and so on as messign about underwater with tarp flapping everywhere will be no fun at all.
Also worth considering the merits of using diving tanks as an air source to suppliment your pumps.
A single 12 litre tank holds about 2500 liters of air and since you're fairly shallow, you might displace about 2000 liters of water per tank. It should be relatively easy to source quite a few tanks!
If you think this is a possibility then worth knowing that you get a faster flow rate out of a diving tank if the DV is attached and freeflowing that by just cracking the valve with no DV attached. (Expect to empty a 12l in 10 mins or so.)

Paul

PS. As I said, I've messed about doing this kind of stuff but only on a much smaller scale. I'm not local but PM me if you want to chat about any of this.

 

[Ross D]

Graham,
Have you considered that it will be far easier to line the inside of your semi-watertight spaces (engine room and so on) with plastic tarp and then fill with air so that the air pressure sticks the tarp to the inside of each space rather than try to fix any covering externally. If you do this, suggest you think very carefully about how to get the tarps in place safely, dry runs of unfolding and so on as messign about underwater with tarp flapping everywhere will be no fun at all.
Also worth considering the merits of using diving tanks as an air source to suppliment your pumps.
A single 12 litre tank holds about 2500 liters of air and since you're fairly shallow, you might displace about 2000 liters of water per tank. It should be relatively easy to source quite a few tanks!
If you think this is a possibility then worth knowing that you get a faster flow rate out of a diving tank if the DV is attached and freeflowing that by just cracking the valve with no DV attached. (Expect to empty a 12l in 10 mins or so.)

Paul

Good points but I would be very careful using air internally/lifting internally to try and move the vessel.

Apart from the practical considerations of plastic lining the water tight compartments, there is a significant structural integrity issue. The deck is not designed to withstand the lifting force and there is a good chance if you successfully start to lift the vessel you will rip the deck off.

Secondly you need to be able to vent the water out of the bottom of the hull that has been displaced by the compressed air, not a problem in the section which has been holed but in the other compartments means more holes in the hull.

Compressed air internally within tanks can split the tanks, they are only designed to take the weight of the fuel etc not any positive pressure, the watertight compartments are designed to take pressure externally rather than internally. Only a couple of bars or positive pressure within a fuel tank can rupture the tank or the hull.

Using compressed air to displace some of the water in the flooded compartments is not a bad idea, but I would work more on the principle of dive in with a plastic drum then fill it with air once it is inside and put the lid on. Not to try and fill the compartment but to give some lift/reduce the water volume in the flooded compartments you are not pumping.

But I think that overall this would not make much difference compared to a large pump on an adjacent barge. If you manage to get a couple of pontoons alongside you can have a pump for every compartment.



Ross

 

[PaulMcC]

Yes, very true. Definitely a supplement rather than a replacement to pumping out.
It sounds to me like you have two problems with filling underwater spaces with air, strength is one and the speed with which you can do it is another. Sitting a long way away I expect that filling plastic containers underwater might take too long (and the same volume is the the same upthrust so you still have to worry about structural strength) but it will be a lot easier!

 

[Graham_Wright]

Good points but I would be very careful using air internally/lifting internally to try and move the vessel.

Apart from the practical considerations of plastic lining the water tight compartments, there is a significant structural integrity issue. The deck is not designed to withstand the lifting force and there is a good chance if you successfully start to lift the vessel you will rip the deck off.

Secondly you need to be able to vent the water out of the bottom of the hull that has been displaced by the compressed air, not a problem in the section which has been holed but in the other compartments means more holes in the hull.

Compressed air internally within tanks can split the tanks, they are only designed to take the weight of the fuel etc not any positive pressure, the watertight compartments are designed to take pressure externally rather than internally. Only a couple of bars or positive pressure within a fuel tank can rupture the tank or the hull.

Using compressed air to displace some of the water in the flooded compartments is not a bad idea, but I would work more on the principle of dive in with a plastic drum then fill it with air once it is inside and put the lid on. Not to try and fill the compartment but to give some lift/reduce the water volume in the flooded compartments you are not pumping.

But I think that overall this would not make much difference compared to a large pump on an adjacent barge. If you manage to get a couple of pontoons alongside you can have a pump for every compartment.



Ross

I agree absolutely. I have warned Mark that no way should he try buoyancy inside. The structure below the weather deck is support only. There is no real downwards strength. Currently with two 4" pumps he is shifting nearly 300 tons per hour. Where is it all coming from?

 

[Daydream believer]

Thinking laterally, would not be cheaper to get a large excavator on the dock ( if it can take the weight) & smash it up & stick it in a skip
Considering the hassle & cost there comes a time when you have to make a serious, if not heart rendering decision
Even if you do salvage it that will not be the end of the costs

 

[prv]

Currently with two 4" pumps he is shifting nearly 300 tons per hour. Where is it all coming from?

Fom the dock, clearly. Sounds like he's just circulating it through the boat, through the pump, into the dock, and back through the boat.

Pete

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Thinking laterally, would not be cheaper to get a large excavator on the dock ( if it can take the weight) & smash it up & stick it in a skip
Considering the hassle & cost there comes a time when you have to make a serious, if not heart rendering decision
Even if you do salvage it that will not be the end of the costs

I think the time for you posting on this thread has long passed. Whatever strange thrill it's giving you is I hope, worth the loss of self respect that must surely ensue.

 

[testmonkey]

Have you guys already considered techniques used in offshore pipeline installations; namely bottom pull or bottom tow. Not saying it would work in this case but just a thought.

As lifting a big sunken boat is very difficult maybe don't even try doing that. Rather get a tug to tow it along the bottom to the shore at high water. For last stretch use either big winches or farm tractors. In India they use elephants to pull ships ashore before dismantling them.

I saw an accident report of a small motorboat having sunk and officials wanted to investigate it. Due to some circumstances lifting it was not feasible, so a diver just attached a towline to it and it was towed on the bottom to a place where a crane was available.

Again not saying a bottom pull would be feasible here, but maybe worth a thought at least to rule it out.

 

[machone]

I looked around this vessel when she was being sold by the previous owner. At that time I'd looked around quite a few potential liveaboards in various stages of completion and she was by no means the worst. One thing that did worry me was the water that was being piped with a sprinkler system around the outside of the hull to keep the 'boards wet and tight'. Could this system have failed? If so, she could be more watertight now than she was, which is at least something.

I hope you have some success. If you manage it, what an epic story! pm on the way

 

[clyst]

I think the time for you posting on this thread has long passed. Whatever strange thrill it's giving you is I hope, worth the loss of self respect that must surely ensue.

Thing is he's looking at it from outside the box in the cold light of daywhich unfortunately maybe the final outcome . i note you are very quick to rip into the dreamer ...... So What is your "workable" practical solution of salvage ?

 

[chrisbitz]

I have nothing to contribute, but I just wanted to say that three times a day, I eagerly catch up with this story to see how things are progressing!

I really wish you the best of luck with this challenge, I can't wait to see how it gets floated in the end!
please please take as much video and pictures as you can when things actually happen!

 

[rogerboy]

+1

I think the time for you posting on this thread has long passed. Whatever strange thrill it's giving you is I hope, worth the loss of self respect that must surely ensue.

 

[Ross D]

+2

I think the time for you posting on this thread has long passed. Whatever strange thrill it's giving you is I hope, worth the loss of self respect that must surely ensue.