Crisis, help urgently needed.

[saltyrob]

Hi

Is it possible to hire an underwater video camera on a pole such as used in wildlife films or buy/borrow a cheapish waterproof video camera and mount it on a pole . If the damage was caused by some steelwork attached to the quay it may be possible to identify the cause and location , to help formulate a recovery plan.

You sound like a great dad to me ,please be carefull

Rob

 

[maxcampbell]

Best of luck with this, Graham. I'm not a salvage expert, but it does seem to me that as soon as you've slowed the water's ingress down to the point that it's slower than the pumps, any tarps, plastic or whatever will tend to stay put because of the positive pressure. A 2,000 l/min pump doesn't sound that big (what is it, a 4" suck & blow type?) a 6" diesel pump should move about 5,000 l/min, and will weigh less than the 2 tonne limit.

As for slowing the ingress down, I haven't seen an answer to whether the ironwork that caused the damage (or some of it) is still poking through the hull. Is the 1.5" x 6" (wasn't it?) hole the only damage you know of?

Try & ignore the pillocks who take this opportunity to nag about insurance. I wish I could do something real to help.

 

[contessaman]

Hi

Is it possible to hire an underwater video camera on a pole such as used in wildlife films or buy/borrow a cheapish waterproof video camera and mount it on a pole

like this:

http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/1707...&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=64

looks like it will plug into a normal tv with rca connectors.

 

[DinghyMan]

Maplin do a complete colour underwater camera setup http://www.maplin.co.uk/underwater-colour-surveillance-system-223963 and used to do a B&W version of the same a good bit cheaper

 

[Ross D]

I have just read all of this thread, very sorry to hear about the sinking.

I have a couple of suggestions which may help:

If you need to hammer wedges etc into the hole underwater, an ordinary hammer is pretty ineffective in the water, you will be much better off with a slide hammer. It is basically a solid bar with a collar at one end, and a heavy circular weight that fits over the bar. You place the bar on the thing to be hit and slide the weight down so it hits the collar.

You can use magnetic sheet to cover holes in steel structures. It is easily and cheaply available from signwriting suppliers, specialist magnetic tarpaulins are available for salvage operations but I have no idea how you would get hold of them.

To find your way underwater, rig a line as cave divers do, fixed to the entrance and then tie off at various points until you are by the hole. In very murky water bright lights will do next to nothing, they merely make it less dark but you still won't be albe to see.

You probably should also consider changing your diving gear set up to that used in cave diving. Standard diving set ups are not designed for or safe to use in confined low vis situations. Cave divers are pretty much all solo divers in next to no visibility in cramped conditions, so the arrangements are set up for that, similar to what you need for salvage unless you start surface fed diving.

If there are internal steel I or T beams you could try obtaining beam clamps from a MOD surplus suppliers to fix internal shoring to.

Hope these help.

Ross

 

[Heckler]

I have just read all of this thread, very sorry to hear about the sinking.

I have a couple of suggestions which may help:

If you need to hammer wedges etc into the hole underwater, an ordinary hammer is pretty ineffective in the water, you will be much better off with a slide hammer. It is basically a solid bar with a collar at one end, and a heavy circular weight that fits over the bar. You place the bar on the thing to be hit and slide the weight down so it hits the collar.

You can use magnetic sheet to cover holes in steel structures. It is easily and cheaply available from signwriting suppliers, specialist magnetic tarpaulins are available for salvage operations but I have no idea how you would get hold of them.

To find your way underwater, rig a line as cave divers do, fixed to the entrance and then tie off at various points until you are by the hole. In very murky water bright lights will do next to nothing, they merely make it less dark but you still won't be albe to see.

You probably should also consider changing your diving gear set up to that used in cave diving. Standard diving set ups are not designed for or safe to use in confined low vis situations. Cave divers are pretty much all solo divers in next to no visibility in cramped conditions, so the arrangements are set up for that, similar to what you need for salvage unless you start surface fed diving.

If there are internal steel I or T beams you could try obtaining beam clamps from a MOD surplus suppliers to fix internal shoring to.

Hope these help.

Ross

The prob with all the helpful suggestions is that they cost a serious amount of money!
The guy couldnt afford insurance which is why he is where he is mow, so how can afford any of these ideas?
Stu

 

[Graham_Wright]

Hi

Is it possible to hire an underwater video camera on a pole such as used in wildlife films or buy/borrow a cheapish waterproof video camera and mount it on a pole . If the damage was caused by some steelwork attached to the quay it may be possible to identify the cause and location , to help formulate a recovery plan.

You sound like a great dad to me ,please be carefull

Rob

That is so obvious I feel ashamed not to have thought of it! Even more, I have just bought (for peanuts) a submersible endoscope which, however, would not work on my Mac.

I realise that, with so many posts, it is tedious to read them to obtain the whole picture.

I have ruled out steelwork damage.

 

[maby]

That is so obvious I feel ashamed not to have thought of it! Even more, I have just bought (for peanuts) a submersible endoscope which, however, would not work on my Mac.

I realise that, with so many posts, it is tedious to read them to obtain the whole picture.

I have ruled out steelwork damage.

If you've rules out steelwork damage, do you have any idea how it got into this state? If it was some kind of structural failure, that puts a very different complexion on it...

 

[Graham_Wright]

Best of luck with this, Graham. I'm not a salvage expert, but it does seem to me that as soon as you've slowed the water's ingress down to the point that it's slower than the pumps, any tarps, plastic or whatever will tend to stay put because of the positive pressure. A 2,000 l/min pump doesn't sound that big (what is it, a 4" suck & blow type?) a 6" diesel pump should move about 5,000 l/min, and will weigh less than the 2 tonne limit.

A dockside pump is not possible because of the lift height (theoretical maximum 30ft). For the same reason, it would not be possible to lower it onto the deck because of its weight. It would have to be removed between tides. The 4" submersible pump shifts around 40 litres per second at zero head (=2400 litres/min =144,000 litres/hr =144 tonnes per hour). (Bear in mind water levels inside and out are equal certainly until she starts to lift). The submersible can be left in situ whilst she is submerged (as long as the electrics are above water).[/QUOTE]

As for slowing the ingress down, I haven't seen an answer to whether the ironwork that caused the damage (or some of it) is still poking through the hull. Is the 1.5" x 6" (wasn't it?) hole the only damage you know of?

Not the ironwork, reason unknown at the moment. It is probably a combination of an original cobbled repair plus the positive feedback from water rising above normal waterline levels.[/QUOTE]

Try & ignore the pillocks who take this opportunity to nag about insurance. I wish I could do something real to help.

The real problem with the pillocks is that they dilute the message and make it necessary to repeat comments which are lost in the chaff.

 

[Graham_Wright]

The prob with all the helpful suggestions is that they cost a serious amount of money!
The guy couldnt afford insurance which is why he is where he is mow, so how can afford any of these ideas?
Stu

If you read all the posts (it is tedious now with all the rubbish) you will find that to be insured requires a survey. The survey requires a slip. The nearest slips are Lancaster or Isle of Man. To reach these, the boat must be safe to go to sea. Although the engine WAS fine, the gearbox has a seized clutch which doesn't prevent propulsion but does make manoeuvring dodgy. A "walk-through" survey was conducted and was encouraging but, obviously, did not include the hull. "Not being able to afford" is not the case.

The 4" pump hire is £80 per week - not expensive and shifts over 100 tonnes an hour.

The underwater video camera is peanuts.

 

[Graham_Wright]

I have just read all of this thread, very sorry to hear about the sinking.

I have a couple of suggestions which may help:

If you need to hammer wedges etc into the hole underwater, an ordinary hammer is pretty ineffective in the water, you will be much better off with a slide hammer. It is basically a solid bar with a collar at one end, and a heavy circular weight that fits over the bar. You place the bar on the thing to be hit and slide the weight down so it hits the collar.

I see the sense in this;- the action and reaction are to a large extent cancelled. In fact, hammering in the wedges was difficult because of shortage of hands;- one to hold on with, one for the torch, one for the wedge and one for the hammer. Because there was a small amount of light filtering in from the water outside, the torch could be left dangling whilst wielding the hammer.[/QUOTE]

You can use magnetic sheet to cover holes in steel structures. It is easily and cheaply available from signwriting suppliers, specialist magnetic tarpaulins are available for salvage operations but I have no idea how you would get hold of them.

Wooden hull!

To find your way underwater, rig a line as cave divers do, fixed to the entrance and then tie off at various points until you are by the hole. In very murky water bright lights will do next to nothing, they merely make it less dark but you still won't be albe to see.

Done that - makes exit easier and less "exciting" as well!

You probably should also consider changing your diving gear set up to that used in cave diving. Standard diving set ups are not designed for or safe to use in confined low vis situations. Cave divers are pretty much all solo divers in next to no visibility in cramped conditions, so the arrangements are set up for that, similar to what you need for salvage unless you start surface fed diving.

Don't know about this. I did not use fins and I carried 16Kg of weights. My jacket was auto inflating (a fault supposedly fixed by the dive shop but is intermittent and has caused a few problems in the past). Disconnecting the inflation hose fixed that but I still had little traction on the bottom. At such a shallow depth, there was no real opportunity for the wetsuit to lose its buoyancy. Fortunately, there is not much hindrance to movement. From memory, most of the junk (my son calls it "valuable commodities") is non-floating. I have fallen out with a step ladder that kept attacking me and which needs to be removed.

If there are internal steel I or T beams you could try obtaining beam clamps from a MOD surplus suppliers to fix internal shoring to.

Hope these help.

Ross[/QUOTE]

Instead of hammering in wedges, another poster suggested stuffing with rags or the like and nailing a strip of wood over the inside. That would have been more effective and probably easier.

 

[clyst]

If you read all the posts (it is tedious now with all the rubbish) you will find that to be insured requires a survey. The survey requires a slip. The nearest slips are Lancaster or Isle of Man. To reach these, the boat must be safe to go to sea. Although the engine WAS fine, the gearbox has a seized clutch which doesn't prevent propulsion but does make manoeuvring dodgy. A "walk-through" survey was conducted and was encouraging but, obviously, did not include the hull. "Not being able to afford" is not the case

U

The 4" pump hire is £80 per week - not expensive and shifts over 100 tonnes an hour.

The underwater video camera is peanuts.

"Not being able to afford" is not the case........... it's been 5days now that the boat has been on the bottom with no workable plan in place . pillocks ??? I'm beginning to wonder who are the pillocks

 

[savageseadog]

A dockside pump is not possible because of the lift height (theoretical maximum 30ft). For the same reason, it would not be possible to lower it onto the deck because of its weight. It would have to be removed between tides. The 4" submersible pump shifts around 40 litres per second at zero head (=2400 litres/min =144,000 litres/hr =144 tonnes per hour). (Bear in mind water levels inside and out are equal certainly until she starts to lift). The submersible can be left in situ whilst she is submerged (as long as the electrics are above water).

You could float a pump in an inflatable or some sort of small boat

[/QUOTE]

 

[Graham_Wright]

If you've rules out steelwork damage, do you have any idea how it got into this state? If it was some kind of structural failure, that puts a very different complexion on it...

This is the big one.

The leak I found was caused, we think, by a crude repair to previous damage. Having more or less plugged it, the pumping efforts have had disappointing results. This may be because above waterline dodgy areas are now underwater and admitting even more than the original hole. It may also be because the authorities have not permitted the water level to drop below the deck again as doing so the first time caused (minor) damage to the marina pontoons.

The hull is impressively strong. Massive oak ribs and a fair amount of fore-and-aft steelwork. Despite that, and despite assurance from harbour officers that the bottom is soft mud, there may have been some penetration of the bottom. That will only be possible to ascertain when she lifts. There are several suspect below waterline planks that need to be replaced but that can only be done when she is on the hard. The longer she is submerged the more the planking will swell.

Using the 4" pump last low water, the engine room level dropped 5 feet. (I don't know how long that took yet.) The next plan it to pump the steering flat (so-say watertight compartment) and the engine room (same) and then empty and seal the fuel tanks (which are massive and probably full of water - no fuel and no consequent pollution fortunately). I think Mark will then let her settle on the bottom again and on the next low water, do the same up for'rard. Hopefully she will then start to lift and finding problems consequently easier.

 

[Graham_Wright]

You could float a pump in an inflatable or some sort of small boat

[/QUOTE]

We've considered that. An inflatable would, I think, not be sufficiently stable. We have not "come across" a small boat. An RN type alongside raft (can't remember the name) would be ideal. However, Mark has "come across" a dredger mounting a crane which he mentioned as an incidental addition to his last phone call! He has the "gift of the gab" and that discovery sounds very promising.

He will probably hire another 4" submersible today and give it his all over the weekend. As my air cylinders are in for test, I can hve this weeknd off and work on my own boat!

 

[Graham_Wright]

"Not being able to afford" is not the case........... it's been 5days now that the boat has been on the bottom with no workable plan in place . pillocks ??? I'm beginning to wonder who are the pillocks

A lot of the responses to my original post have been helpful, most have been sympathetic and some have been "noise" which has just diluted the rest.

If you have a helpful comment, it will be very welcome otherwise may I politely request you don't "clog the airwaves".

 

[clyst]

A lot of the responses to my original post have been helpful, most have been sympathetic and some have been "noise" which has just diluted the rest.

If you have a helpful comment, it will be very welcome otherwise may I politely request you don't "clog the airwaves".

I'm afraid that you have caused the "clogging the airwaves" by changing your story . In your OP you state that finances are very tight ....... Now it appears money is not an issue . your OP stated that there is fuel aboard and that pollution control would probably need to be deployed ....... Now you there isn't any fuel onboard . Please make your mind up before you discredit yourself .
Posting on these forums is inviting comments of different points of view . As I have said in many of my posts on this thread I wish you well and I continual to do so but please accept that positive and negative views will be posted without deliberatly trying to be disrupted to your plight.

 

[Graham_Wright]

I'm afraid that you have caused the "clogging the airwaves" by changing your story . In your OP you state that finances are very tight ....... Now it appears money is not an issue . your OP stated that there is fuel aboard and that pollution control would probably need to be deployed ....... Now you there isn't any fuel onboard . Please make your mind up before you discredit yourself .
Posting on these forums is inviting comments of different points of view . As I have said in many of my posts on this thread I wish you well and I continual to do so but please accept that positive and negative views will be posted without deliberatly trying to be disrupted to your plight.

That is true - "There is fuel and lubricating oil on board and I assume that a boom will be deployed to stop pollution."

I should have clarified. The fuel was in a deck tank which has floated away and been secured by harbour staff. It had not leaked. So my OP was correct and the situation has changed.

There was no fuel in the inboard tanks. There is lubricating oil in the engine and gearbox (which is minus its top cover) and there has been a minute dribble out of a vent. The fire brigade deployed a boom which has turned out to be unnecessary.

Money most certainly is an issue! Others are talking about professional salvage costs which are thousands. To date, we have spent (between various family members) a few hundred.

I asked for help and have to accept that criticism will inevitably accompany it.

I hope that others will not rise to your bait and further "dilute".

 

[fireball]

This is the big one.

The leak I found was caused, we think, by a crude repair to previous damage. Having more or less plugged it, the pumping efforts have had disappointing results. This may be because above waterline dodgy areas are now underwater and admitting even more than the original hole.

Is it not possible to get some tarps to attach to the guard rail and down the side? It won't block water ingress from above the (normal) waterline but should slow it down somewhat .. that should allow the pump(s) to bail more effectively.

 

[Ross D]

We've considered that. An inflatable would, I think, not be sufficiently stable. We have not "come across" a small boat. An RN type alongside raft (can't remember the name) would be ideal. [/QUOTE]

They are called mexi floats.

But you could use any large floating platform, if the marina has a spare pontoon you could secure alongside that would work. Or if the docks has a painting catamaran that sort of thing would also work.

At a push you could make a floating raft to support a pump. Lash on sealed oil drums, steel or plastic to a wooden spar framework. If you need more buoyancy you could use 1000 litre IBC containers (the large square containers) they come with a galvanised cage so they would lash together easily to make a solid structure/raft. The last time I investigated buying some they were around £50 each and would give a tonne of bouyancy. I think you would need to space them apart with spars to get a stable platform.

Ross