Cradle pad positioning advice required

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Neil

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I have my little Sadler 25 out on the hard and in a Tennemast cradle for the first time since I bought the boat. Each year, I've slapped on more antifoul such that the surface resembled a lunar landscape with lumps coming off with a new application. So I bit the bullet and have scraped off the thick of it.

It occurred to me that with a little more effort (and cash) the surface preparation would be conducive to Coppercoat.

When the boat was lifted out, the day was supervised by the lift out guru. He checked every cradle and made adjustments before each boat was lowered. Currently, my pads are below the waterline. This would require me to substitute a temporary prop for each pad in turn, for both scraping, polishing and Coppercoating. Clearly this will be a PITA. Ideally, I'd like to do it all in one go which would require the pads to be placed above the water line.

Now, the entire weight of the boat is on the keel, and when it was set down, wooden chocks were placed such that the keel was supported evenly. The pads, therefore, are just there to stop the boat falling over. I can't think of a reason why I can't substitute a temporary prop while raising each pad support in turn so that all are above the waterline. What is wrong with my logic? Certainly, all the boats around me have their pads below the waterline.......
 
Neil said:
Now, the entire weight of the boat is on the keel, and when it was set down, wooden chocks were placed such that the keel was supported evenly. The pads, therefore, are just there to stop the boat falling over. I can't think of a reason why I can't substitute a temporary prop while raising each pad support in turn so that all are above the waterline. What is wrong with my logic?
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Can't see any reason why not, though I think I would also cock/wedge/block the keel so there was no chance of it moving sideways. There was a chap killed last (?) year when he lowered one leg on the cradle and wind rotated the boat around a diagonal pair into the gap left.

My boat sits very happily supported by her keel and two legs, bot of which attach well above waterline.
 
Neil said:
I have my little Sadler 25 out on the hard and in a Tennemast cradle for the first time since I bought the boat. Each year, I've slapped on more antifoul such that the surface resembled a lunar landscape with lumps coming off with a new application. So I bit the bullet and have scraped off the thick of it.

It occurred to me that with a little more effort (and cash) the surface preparation would be conducive to Coppercoat.

When the boat was lifted out, the day was supervised by the lift out guru. He checked every cradle and made adjustments before each boat was lowered. Currently, my pads are below the waterline. This would require me to substitute a temporary prop for each pad in turn, for both scraping, polishing and Coppercoating. Clearly this will be a PITA. Ideally, I'd like to do it all in one go which would require the pads to be placed above the water line.

Now, the entire weight of the boat is on the keel, and when it was set down, wooden chocks were placed such that the keel was supported evenly. The pads, therefore, are just there to stop the boat falling over. I can't think of a reason why I can't substitute a temporary prop while raising each pad support in turn so that all are above the waterline. What is wrong with my logic? Certainly, all the boats around me have their pads below the waterline.......
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Nothing wrong with your logic. I have seen boat where the props are fastened to the toe rail.

Is your mast up? If so then I would use halyards tied to the ground to make it even more secure.

Bear in mind you need several days ( maybe 5) of decent wamr weather with no nightime dew to successfully coppercoat outside. I managed to do that in March one year but I was lucky with the weather
 
We do this a lot in the yard.
We usually add a pair of props so that they act against each other.
Adding just one prop does work but there is a chance the boat can twist, especially if the rig is up and there's a blow.
So to do the fwd cradle props we'd add a couple of props a couple of feet fwd and when time to do the aft cradle props we'd add a couple of props a couple of feet aft.
With the Sadler its also worth putting in a bow prop as the keel rakes back quite a way.

As far as copper coat is concerned, I hate the the stuff.
Getting four coats on in a day can be tight on larger boats.
I think we've only over coated five boats in normal antifoul this year.
In 2017 we over coated 7 or 8 boats with Seajet antifoul, as in our area, on the river, it simply doesn't work as well as a good quality antifoul.
Some customers do swear by it, but its noticeable that they always ask us to pressure wash it clean and pay us just as much to prep it for the new season (clean and abrade) as it would cost to apply antifoul.
 
Javelin said:
We do this
Some customers do swear by it, but its noticeable that they always ask us to pressure wash it clean and pay us just as much to prep it for the new season (clean and abrade) as it would cost to apply antifoul.
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How does that price work then?
2 boats one with coppercoat one with conventional anti foul.
Wash clean and abrade both.
Buy and apply anti foul on one, do nothing else to the other but the price is the same.?
 
Didn't include the price of anti foul,
I was thinking about the time it takes to clean and properly prep (as per Coppercoat recommendation)
In terms of time there's not much in it.
You also have to be careful not to abrade too much, just enough to expose the copper.
 
Hacker said:
Neil, why not ask ‘the lift out guru’?
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Dunno who he is - he wasn't part of the club boathouse staff. Not sure about his credentials anyway - he strongly advised me to tie straps between the cradle legs, as if they were likely to splay outwards.
 
Javelin said:
We do this a lot in the yard.
We usually add a pair of props so that they act against each other.
Adding just one prop does work but there is a chance the boat can twist, especially if the rig is up and there's a blow.
So to do the fwd cradle props we'd add a couple of props a couple of feet fwd and when time to do the aft cradle props we'd add a couple of props a couple of feet aft.
With the Sadler its also worth putting in a bow prop as the keel rakes back quite a way.

As far as copper coat is concerned, I hate the the stuff.
Getting four coats on in a day can be tight on larger boats.
I think we've only over coated five boats in normal antifoul this year.
In 2017 we over coated 7 or 8 boats with Seajet antifoul, as in our area, on the river, it simply doesn't work as well as a good quality antifoul.
Some customers do swear by it, but its noticeable that they always ask us to pressure wash it clean and pay us just as much to prep it for the new season (clean and abrade) as it would cost to apply antifoul.
Click to expand...

I was thinking of only using one temporary prop to replace each leg in turn as I raised its pad above the waterline.
 
Javelin said:
Some customers do swear by it, but its noticeable that they always ask us to pressure wash it clean and pay us just as much to prep it for the new season (clean and abrade) as it would cost to apply antifoul.
Click to expand...

More fool them and good for you.

I have mine washed twice a year. Once in the short winter haulout, cost included in the lift, and once in mid summer cost £70. About to enter fourth season, but in water all year round and no abrading needed so far.
 
Neil said:
I was thinking of only using one temporary prop to replace each leg in turn as I raised its pad above the waterline.
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Yup, understood.

I'll stick to my original comment though.
One temporary prop each side, opposed to each other.

You can (and I have done) use just the one extra but its a risk.
Mind you they prop up hundreds of yachts using just wooden poles in lots of places and blocks of sandstone in Malta!
I'm just saying that from my experience two props opposite is far better than one placed offset.
 
How about leaving the pads until next time you are lifted out? You would be able to see the pad marks that were not done this winter, the crane driver would put the stands in a slightly different position, then you would have plenty of time to prepare and treat the pad marks. Maybe you won't be coming out next winter, but just a thought. I would be wary of removing the props without the yard knowing, if it goes tits up you would be liable. There would be a bit of weight on the front pads of a sadler, so yes you would need a prop under the bow to take a bit of weight. Maybe the yard could slide a spare stand in front of the one at the minute and use it temporary until you are finished?
 
As others have said, moving one prop at a time by using a temporary pair of props is fine however you do need to make sure that the new location for the cradle legs gives you good supporting angle on a part of the hull that is strong enough to take any forces. You will need to do this just to antifoul properly anyway. If you feel the pads should stay below the waterline then I would do everything you can before moving all the props and doing the patches.

As to Coppercoat I think it depends where you keep the boat and how you use it. I am happy with Coppercoat myself but take advice from others who have tried in your mooring area. If you do go this route a temporary tent and some heaters helps a lot and a friend to mix while you apply is almost a must. If you can't avoid having patches to coppercoat then I would suggest you leave keel, rudder and patches for the second day of application as it is easier to mix bigger quantities.

Yoda
 
black mercury said:
How about leaving the pads until next time you are lifted out? You would be able to see the pad marks that were not done this winter, the crane driver would put the stands in a slightly different position, then you would have plenty of time to prepare and treat the pad marks. Maybe you won't be coming out next winter, but just a thought. I would be wary of removing the props without the yard knowing, if it goes tits up you would be liable. There would be a bit of weight on the front pads of a sadler, so yes you would need a prop under the bow to take a bit of weight. Maybe the yard could slide a spare stand in front of the one at the minute and use it temporary until you are finished?
Click to expand...

Well, when the front pads are raised a foot or so, they'll still be supporting the bows?
 
yoda said:
As others have said, moving one prop at a time by using a temporary pair of props is fine however you do need to make sure that the new location for the cradle legs gives you good supporting angle on a part of the hull that is strong enough to take any forces. You will need to do this just to antifoul properly anyway. If you feel the pads should stay below the waterline then I would do everything you can before moving all the props and doing the patches.

As to Coppercoat I think it depends where you keep the boat and how you use it. I am happy with Coppercoat myself but take advice from others who have tried in your mooring area. If you do go this route a temporary tent and some heaters helps a lot and a friend to mix while you apply is almost a must. If you can't avoid having patches to coppercoat then I would suggest you leave keel, rudder and patches for the second day of application as it is easier to mix bigger quantities.

Yoda
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The boat in front of me on the hard has a nice pale green clean hull........

It's not the bow supports that concern me; the stern supports are underneath the hull - moving them up will give sideways support but not much else. Having said that, all the weight is supported by the keel.
 
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The problem with placing the props above the water line is that they must (manufacturers and ABYC) meet the hull at a 90 degree angle to prevent bending or kicking out. Yes, you will connect them with chain, but this does not solve the bending problem.

You are off the reservation with this one, it's not done that way for good reasons, and looking at huge risk. You need to leave them below the water line, and replace them in pairs, chained together, before removing the last one. Read the guide lines from Brownell and others for placing stands. Stay safe.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I've seen the results of boats that toppled because someone moved props.

(Move stands in most US boatyards, and they will throw you out in a minute, first offense. The other boat owners will support them on this. Most would turn you in, for your safety.)
 
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Neil said:
Well, when the front pads are raised a foot or so, they'll still be supporting the bows?
Click to expand...

If they are roughly below the waterline then yes, they will be. For a rough guide, 75% of the weight will be taken by the keel, for a sadler ( racing boats with delicate keels are a different matter) the rest is taken by the pads. The reason is to support the hull, if left with all weight on the keel the hull can creep over a long time, pushing the rear of the keel into the hull. Not all boats are susceptible but the Westerly Falcon fin keel is an example. The other reason is with weight on the stands there is less chance of them moving, they are being pinned down. If you move the rear ones above the waterline this isn't happening, nor is it supporting the rear of the hull. Fine if only for a few days in light winds. The stands should be strapped across each other and between each other, front stand to rear stand, as the front stand can walk itself forward in strong winds. Just ask the yard, they should be willing to help or advise, instead of doing this on your own. p.s. if you don't support the front of the boat properly before removing the pads it will drop forward slightly, removing weight on the rear pads, possibly loosening them. Extra pair of hands would be good, i.e the yard workers.
 
One other issue is you must make sure the pad is on a hard spot.
Nicholson's for example are very prone to the hull bending inwards above the waterline and if not on but near a bulkhead you will likely get gel crazing.
We've even seen the pad break through the hull during high winds a few years on on a Nic39.
Even with heavier layups we quite often have to adjust the pads as the boat settles and you can see the pad slightly deforming the hull.
Generally the sandwich boats are better and stiffer and below the waterline is usually much stiffer than above.
A quick knock on the hull with your knuckles is usually enough to locate a bulkhead.

A few of the Westerlies are prone to issues if too much weight is on the keel.
GK''s were notorious for it.
Some Jeanneau, Feelings and Bav's are also sometimes quite difficult to chock up for this reason
and long keelers like the rustler, contessa and the like just want to fall forward given half a chance.

My boat had a silly deep keel which is only a couple of feet long at the bottom.
So I use six legs plus a vertical prop fore and aft.
Most yachts above 38 to 40 ft need at least six legs if the rig is left up.

Sorry for the topic drift.
 
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