Cradle or stands for a bilge keeler

[Refueler]

I still remember the advice for school/college exams; 1. Read the question. 2. Answer the question you've been asked.

Actually should that not read : Read ALL the paper through before answering any questions ?

Business Management Course I attended years ago had an Exam paper in it ... and I was the only one to complete correctly. The LAST question was actually : Did you read all the exam paper and know that you do not answer any of the questions ?

 

[Refueler]

Just to add to some others comments.

I have seen some awful attempts by 'inexperienced' boatyard 'jobbers' to support keeled boats .. badly placed posts, wedges wrong way round, not supporting at strategic positions in line with bulkheads etc.
That INCLUDES cradles.

It is not hard to google boats that have toppled over in strong winds due to poor shoring up. A Bilge Keeler has advantage when on its keels of good stability - but once keels are dropped and boat is sitting on its hull .... the weight distribution has seriously altered its centre of gravity .. to being near middle height of boat hull. With the keels - it was at or just below hull. The boat without keels now is far more subject to side winds and if the cradle is not wide enough with additional transverse security lines - it could more easily topple over.... (We assume boat is outside in yard).
Use of a cradle designed for a single keel boat to carry a bilge keel boat without its keels is in my honest opinion only to be used INSIDE a workshop where winds etc. cannot affect its stability. That cradle is designed to have that keel in place bringing CoG down low .. and keel usually standing on a block or ground as well. If used outside - it will IMHO need extra long transverse beams added and locked down.

Good yard people will understand this and would also try to reduce risk to the other boats surrounding the one in question.

 

[sur-la-mer]

As wrote, I'm not taking my keels off.

Look, the water line is 2'3". The distance between the underside of the hull and the ground is so little, one cannot turn around while directly under it. I'm only talking about lifting 1' or 2' at the most.

 

[Refueler]

As wrote, I'm not taking my keels off.

Look, the water line is 2'3". The distance between the underside of the hull and the ground is so little, one cannot turn around while directly under it. I'm only talking about lifting 1' or 2' at the most.

So why the post after post about keels off ?? Maybe not from you - but certainly has been a topic within this thread.

You have been given ways to achieve the desired ... so I fail to understand what the problem is now.

I have a Bilge Keel boat and fully understand the 'underhull' access ... and is why I solved it without having to argue with yard guys about how to do it.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I think the reason that keel removal was mooted is that this was the only reason a lot of us thought that a cradle for a bilge keel boat was worth considering, and that a couple of old sleepers or other blocks under the keels would be a far more cost effective and logical option.
sur-la-mer has never said they wanted to remove the keels, but still seemed intent on going to the expense and complication of having a cradle for a bilge keel boat which unless it can be dis-assembled and taken off-site during the sailing season the yard in question I am sure will charge storage for. But as I commented in an earlier post if a cradle for a bilge keel is what sur-la-mer wants then it's their choice, just seems to me and others a bit OTT.

 

[sur-la-mer]

It's not logical at all. It's just habitual, and not a solution for my more unique circumstances.

And, as I have also written more than once, the provision of props and cradles is free within the price of hard standing.

So why the post after post about keels off ?? Maybe not from you - but ...

I don't know. It's something that happens more on internet forums than in person (happened again just there), when they'd see a facial reaction and realise that they'd not grasped the question sooner, and could be interrupted. "Herding cats" comes to mind ... they're not getting paid for their advice, so they don't pay attention, and say what they want.

I think people's focus, attention to detail, and reading comprehension, never mind manners, are deteriorating because of its influence.

I didn't ask for other suggestions because I had worked through them all according to my circumstances ... which I could elucidate upon but it would have made for a too length post.

Largely, it's about time manage and efficiency.
Additionally about the inability to carry back and forward all the accoutrements necessary, eg additional jacks etc (and a reluctance to not want to have to buy them when I don't need to). Fine, if you are a old retired duffer who has all year to do it and the boat's sitting in your driveway. I could work around it. But I'm not. I'm lucky to get 4 days a month, plus another to unwrap/wrap and secure each time, and need to fit it all into that slot.

Finally, I have been lied to and about by the yardman in the past, where a member of staff stole some property and they cocked up a move, and consequently distrust what I am being told by him.

(But before anyone says, "then move your boat", I really can't because I'm in the middle of work involving other local suppliers and it's not sea worthy, and I resent having another £500 ripped out of my wallet plus all the additional time costs and inconveniences. I'm between a rock and a very hard place, and trying to work out a fast solution to avoid a likely slide into litigation).

 

[Refueler]

To be honest ...............

I understand you have a BK boat in a boat yard.

You want to get under the boat to work on her.

You want to be able to get to the underside of the BK's.

None of which are strange or out of the ordinary. Its something that millions of boat owners have sorted (maybe not so many about the BK undersides) - but nothing unusual.

Many posts here have provided answers to this.

You post that you have a 'conflict' with the yard - that sorry to say explains a bit more ... if you are in poor relations with the yard - then all being stupid human beings - life gets crap !

You keep saying "the provision of props and cradles is free within the price of hard standing" ..... mmmm I've known many yards and I cannot think of any that provide such for bilge keel boats other than a few blocks and a prop under the bow if needed. Such provision is usually worded for the single keel boaters.

You say you want the boat raised 1 - 2ft so you can get under. If that's not done when boat is first placed in yard - but asked for later - then yard will of course want to be paid for the additional work regardless of cradles / blocks or whatever required. They will also conduct the work within their Yard rules and guidelines - its THEIR insurance and rules.

Finally - I think we all appreciate your limits on time and so on - especially with CV 19 ... but I really do think you are creating an issue for yourself by blinkered view. Sorry to say this - but you are not unique in this. Most of us have faced similar and managed to get round it without resorting to Yard workers.

If I was you - I would break it all down into parts. Doing each at times available instead of trying to get all done at once or short time.

1. Survey and decide how to do it
2. Acquire items to accomplish - have you spoken to others with boats - maybe they can help with jacks etc. ?
3. Raise boat and block of.
4. Do each section of work as a separate action.
5. Finalise work
6. Lower boat and block of.
7. Remove all gear and pat yourself on back for job done.

 

[lw395]

If you're going to go to law because the yard won't give you a free cradle of the sort which takes the keels off the ground, check out how many of the fin keelers in the yard are getting free cradles which lift their keels off the ground. In the average UK yard, that would be none.

 

[Praxinoscope]

As sur-la-mer has seemingly opted to keep his boat in that earthly paradise known as North Korea, I would suggest a bit of lateral thinking, try contacting the 'Fat Controller' (The Supreme Leader) , who may just take some time off from slaughtering various relatives, wag his finger and all will be solved, there is however a disadvantage to this option in that having a boat may indicate a desire to leave this Nirvana and bring upon sur-la-mar's head a fate worse than crawling under a bilge keel boat.

 

[Refueler]

4 pages of posts for what is a simple common matter undertaken by many boaters ..............

I know I am one who will be obstinate and try to solve 'my way' ...... but even I succumb to wisdom and sensibility on this !!

 

[Boathook]

If you're going to go to law because the yard won't give you a free cradle of the sort which takes the keels off the ground, check out how many of the fin keelers in the yard are getting free cradles which lift their keels off the ground. In the average UK yard, that would be none.

The only boats that I have seen lifted of the ground in a cradle are those with a lifting keel and that it is the owner who supplies it. All other boats rest on their keels, normally on a block of wood and wooden props around to keep upright. My cat just rests on 4 blocks that are placed under the main bulkheads so nice and easy for them.

 

[sur-la-mer]

I know I am one who will be obstinate and try to solve 'my way' ...... but even I succumb to wisdom and sensibility on this !!

Trust me, it's not sensible. It's actually bordering on not possible. You don't know the full circumstances. You've not even read what's been written because it's all been gone over.

You're just repeating what I already know and have worked through and is not the solution. I know, because I've been there/done that. It's in the past.

Specific question, specific answer. Not interested in being told what I already know.

You clearly missed where I wrote that the cradle makers told me which cradle/s could be used for bilge keelers, and how. I tend to believe they know better.

All you're really saying is, "I didn't know that". I'm starting from the point that I do now know that is an option.

If you're going to go to law because ...

Oh, FFS ... Please.

Make it a habit. If you don't know what's going on why, don't speculate. Don't introduce cruft that is utter ridiculous. Ask first.

No, that's not what is going on. (Where is the smilie for banging one's head on a wall?)

 

[Refueler]

I am now extremely intrigued that I want to have full account of the final outcome and solution. Pictures and all .....

You've not even read what's been written because it's all been gone over.

Sorry but that is total tosh ............. I have read carefully what you have written throughout and STILL believe you are creating an issue from something that the world over solves literally everyday ...

You seem intent on re-inventing the wheel.

Please make us all humble by providing the solution you finally use ..with pictures .............. we are all ready to be educated.

 

[lw395]

Oh, FFS ... Please.

Make it a habit. If you don't know what's going on why, don't speculate. Don't introduce cruft that is utter ridiculous. Ask first.

No, that's not what is going on. (Where is the smilie for banging one's head on a wall?)

Frankly, I now think you're just a twat, hope you go to court and get shafted.

 

[sur-la-mer]

Was that helpful to anyone?

To paraphrase William Morris*,

“If you want a golden rule that will fit everything, this is it:

Say nothing in an internet forum that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful.”

Emphasis on the "know".

For "beautiful", I'd include humorous.

*Interesting aside, in 1871 Morris sailed from Granton to Iceland via Tórshavn in the Faroe Islands before arriving at Reykjavik in 4 days, and then back. Must have been a hell of a sail.

 

[Refueler]

I just have a sneaky feeling this is all a wind-up ...

 

[[159032]]

I just have a sneaky feeling this is all a wind-up ...

You don't say......

 

[sur-la-mer]

It's not. I just wanted to know what I needed to know, from someone else who had done it. Not theoreticians.

I could have gone through the why, to a degree I did, but it was irrelevant.

 

[Refueler]

It's not. I just wanted to know what I needed to know, from someone else who had done it. Not theoreticians.

I could have gone through the why, to a degree I did, but it was irrelevant.

Most of the posts are NOT theory ... but experience of people having done it. I know I've done it countless times that now I think literally nothing of it ...

 

[sur-la-mer]

No, they are of people who have not done it, but done something else.

Big difference.

You may have missed it, so I'll repeat it for your benefit.

I spoke to the cradle designers/manufacturers. In fact, more than one. They took details, looked at hull pictures, said it was possible, and referred to specific models. I was looking to speak to someone who had done it. Not someone who had not done it. If I was being impolite, I'd guess you did a mediocre "good enough" job.

Guardian came closest with his bespoke cradle. Someone else made a good point of lining the props up in the right places. The rest was noise, not signal.

Everyone knows someone who has a habit of answering what they think you were asking, instead of what you were asking. It was like that.

You say 12 o'clock, they say 11.
You say 12 o'clock, they say 9.
You say 12 o'clock, they say 7.
You say, no, 12 o'clock, they say 2.

It's like that.

I tend to be more specific.