Cracked hull windows. Any advice?

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Last July we noticed some cracks in the large windows to our master cabin. Pics taken at the time here. Ignore the tape which I put on to mark the extent of the cracks, which have grown a further inch or so since that time

The windows appear to be laminated glass and so far as I can tell, the cracks are internal in whatever material is between the 2 outer glass layers. I also inspected the exterior of the windows and found what looks like failure of the bond between the windows and the hull

Obviously this is very worrying although there is no sign of any leaks through the windows as yet. More in hope than expectation I approached my insurance co (Y Insurance) to see whether they would consider this as a claim but they immediately turned it down on the basis that it was a latent manufacturing defect. I also approached Ferretti through their UK dealer, Ventura, firstly to ask their opinion as to how serious the problem was and secondly to ask whether they would contribute to the cost of replacement on the basis that this shouldn't happen on a 9yr old boat especially one made by a so called quality manufacturer like Ferretti. Predictably they responded by saying they'd never seen anything like it before and it must have been caused by incorrectly lifting the boat. Well I bought the boat in 2014 and the cracks were definitely not present then and it has only been lifted twice since then by a reputable yard and I have the photos to prove it was slung correctly. Anyway Ferretti quoted me a cost of £8000 for supplying replacement windows. Then I approached Trend Marine in the UK to see whether they would be willing to supply and install replacement windows and they weren't interested and a forum friend (thanks Mapism) also kindly approached an Italian yard known for working on Ferrettis on my behalf but several weeks later they have yet to supply a quote so I'm assuming they aren't interested either

So what to do. Obviously at some stage I have to replace the windows otherwise I can't resell the boat which we will probably do in 2-3 years time. The questions are whether there are any alternative suppliers to Ferretti and secondly, just how serious is this situation

Any advice appreciated

 

[rafiki_]

Mike, the windows will be made for Ferretti, not by them, so if you and P can find the supplier, you could go directly? Actually, the glass will be readily available in France, if you can find someone to supply, and cut. Saint Gobain is one of the biggest glass suppliers in the world. A car screen replacer will fit for you. They will have to cut the bonding material to remove the glass and rebond. I have a colleague who used to work for Trend, so if you struggle, I'm sure he can find out the spec of the glass that they would use for this type of installation.

 

[AllanG]

I would've thought the glass would be marked with the manufacturer's name, similar to car windows.....worth checking??

 

[Portofino]

Mike Cedric of Arie d Boom ,la Rague .
They do this stuff all the time on all boats .
They will want it @ there yard ,so perhaps you can sync your annual haul out circa Easter time ? They are fine with other trades men and owner /DIYer,d slapping antifoul on .There is an on site shop too for anodes etc .Or they can do that as well if you don,t want to get your hands mucky !
You have an account and settle up before relaunch
Send them the pics, they will then send or Cedric d Boom himself will do an est and the send you a written est .

In fact I,am having 2x new correct glasses fitted by them on the Itama ,to replace /restore some poor previous repair at the end of April .

For any other SoF guys -engineering wise there's nowt they can,t do -last y saw them curved fins stabs to Riva 63 .

I did approach uk classic car glass makers ( laminate of course ) ,but shade matching issues ,crating a template(s) ,shipping ,removal -install --time Vs £ argument

Like you got nowhare by Ferretti -excuse given - was its a pre 2004 boat -but that does not apply to you ?

Eg the bonding on my quote is for a 2 stage approach not just gunked on .
So although it cost more (there's Allways a cheaper DIY solution )
I,am happy to commission these guys who do this stuff day I day out to retain the integrity of the boat .

 

[jfm]

Yikes mike. What a shame.

Bottom line I think = you have to bite bullet and get from Ferretti (who will of course be taking their supplier price and x2-ing it). These windows have to be cut and printed from a CNC file - no glass maker will be able to do it any other way. IF you could get the CNC files then great, but I doubt you can. Once you have the old windows out you could have them scanned then have new ones CNC cut and fritted (printed black dots) but by the time you have done that and waited for them you'll have burnt £000's in yard fees (you can't put boat in the sea without windows, obviously). And non standard sourcing of a mission critical part might hit the boat on re-sale.

So, annoying though it is, I think you have to buy replacement parts from Ferretti.

As regards adhesive, you'll want to use the latest and greatest polyurethane. Saba 760XL is widely used nowadays, but there are others. It MUST be applied by a yard that knows what it is doing, using foam spacers etc. I would not let a yard that doesn't understand glazing do this because it is critical to get a thick bed of adhesive, or it will fail, either when you lift the boat or when you hit a big wave (eek).

 

[NGM]

As well as sourcing a reasonably priced replacement it appears critical to know what caused it.
I wonder if for some reason it was the lift outs even thoughugh straps were correctly positioned and somehow there is an unintentional flex in the hull.
Perhaps there is just no way of getting to the bottom of this but worth exhausting the potential causes so as not to repeat going forward.

 

[jfm]

For any other SoF guys -engineering wise there's nowt they can,t do -last y saw them curved fins stabs to Riva 63 .

Each to their own of course but I saw them fit fins to a Sq 78, 3 years ago. My boat was lifted out and parked next to it, and the fitter team came over to see mine then showed me theirs. The fit was a disaster - they were clueless. If there is one yard in all SofF whom I wouldn't trust to do anything difficult, it is Arie de Boom in La Rague. And their prices are interesting too.

For an important job like this I would, in this order, (1) haul out in Bleumer, who lets external workers in and get a glazing specialist (or San Lorenzo if they still will) install the glass; or (2) use Monaco marine in St Laurent du Var. In all cases I'd ask to see their work plan and which products they are using. All imho

 

[Portofino]

Mike ,if it's any consolation ,Sunseeker france ,Princess France and Fairline France have HQ,s in my marina .
There is not a week that goes by that we don,t see a large glass sections propped up out side in a semi-create -too big to put inside the plush sales offices .

So somebody's doing a steady trade fitting them .
if you get stuck call one ,any one of them !

 

[TK Blue MAX]

Before lifting out it might be a idea to try to rig up some kind of tell-tale device to see if there is any flex to the glass when the weight is in the slings that might have caused this ,something like a slim timber frame with slats on edge fixed to inside/outside of glass with measurements / spacers to indicate any bowing of the glass, or a video camera mounted in the relevant place as I doubt they'll let you be aboard while lifting. I know this doesn't help with the damage already done ,but could prove that this is the cause, giving you some leverage with the manufacturer towards the replacement costs ,hopefully . It looks like both windows are affected as the tape looks slightly different , to much of a coincidence to my mind to be just one of those "BOAT " things ,good luck.

I don't suppose you have access to strain gauges by any chance ????

 

[Andrew M]

Wow , that's a bit of an eye opener.

Can't comment on anything re repairing it but would one of the well respected, travelling Surveyors be of any use if you are going to tackle the builder ?

 

[MYAG]

That's really bad luck Mike. I doubt its from lifting unless there has been impact. No reason for the hull to start flexing now is there? I know there is a temptation to see how these things go when the crack is just starting out but its more critical than a car windscreen and a healthy broadside slap of water could well punch through depending on the underlying problem/weakness, which of course is not known. 8K wouldn't have seemed a bad deal. I'd get it done pronto if it were me. Sorry.

 

[Gentlemanracer]

The implication being it's nothing to do with design or manufacturing so the presence of cracking is everything to do with normal use or, as the assertion goes, misuse. That's difficult to reconcile with a so-called quality designer / manufacturer but if the presence of replacement glass really is common place with other so-called quality manufacturers, perhaps it's more an indication of what is now "normal" for this design feature and your manufacturer has yet to get their corporate head around how to address it. I'd certainly chat with other marques / re-fitters to find out more. Either way around, we learn as we go and IMHO with the grand scheme of boat costs, the OEM price to replace a structural element has much greater value than a lower price elsewhere. Especially when it's time to sell on!!

 

[Portofino]

That's really bad luck Mike. I doubt its from lifting unless there has been impact. No reason for the hull to start flexing now is there? .

I,ll second that - if lift then it would show up straight away. Either on the hard ,or when put back in ( ok you may notice it the day after etc )
It's happened during "normal use " what ever that means ,it's undefinable .
So Mike can I ask from memory ,if you can associate the firsts sighting AFTER a big sea run ? .
Or it's had a whack -once agian ,any thing /event spring to mind ? -- we all cock up close 1/4 manoeuvring once in while .

Oh one more thing -being an observant chap ( I know annoys people -ref to all the glass our big 3 keep getting del to SoF )
Last time I walked past your boat it looked squashed in ,v tight - may be constant squeezing by neighbours in a blow ,or they whack yours getting in ?
Sorry to open that up - but what if Ferretti are right - never heard of it ?

By way of testing - get some bog standard glass microscope slides of the Internet .
Place a small blob of super glue 5 mm from each end .
Bond them to the window straddling the crack .Perhaps 3 ,bottom ,middle ,and top -where it ends .
You could line more up approx guess the extrapolation .
Then go out and blast about in a "sea state"
If they fracture --- it's flexing .
As a control -fix others - out of sight inside cubaords on the hull in ER .
Especially below the window if you can access the internal skin .
You could also see if the neighbours are pressing too ,ie they # when your boat sits on its berth !



If crack --- hull is flexing .
You can repeat @ lift out
Compare results .

 

[burgundyben]

How is it known to be strain related? Could it be thermal gradient?

 

[stillwaters]

Just another thought for the pot if all else fails. Would Hourglass at Havant be of any use? They can produce most requirements in glass, including shaping & screen printing etc. They are also accustomed to producing replacement windows of all shapes and sizes for yachts. I had a replacement windscreen section from them about 3 years ago for a fraction of what I was quoted elsewhere, under £600 inc.vat for a curved to shape and size laminated screen approx. 1500x1050x8.4mm.
They actually used the faulty screen as a template, so it was necessary for my fitter to remove it first, however they quoted a precise time slot which enabled a quick turnaround. From my own experience, I very much agree with others on here, getting an experienced window fitter is a must, whoever supplies the glass. Also, might it not be a reasonable idea to get a decent surveyor to check for the inherent cause, I hate to mention it but lightning DOES actually tend to strike in the same place more than once.

www.hourglass.uk.com

 

[Portofino]

How is it known to be strain related? Could it be thermal gradient?

What laminated glass ? Nah
Buts that's the point of the fixa slide glass test - it will reveal where the stress source is or not is as well

 

[petem]

Are these windows structural, like a car window?

If they are then does it figure that either they are not strong enough or the flexing of the hull is putting too much strain on them? It's interesting that you are starting to see failure in the bonding too.

One other thing, is the direction of the cracks significant?

 

[[2068]]

I'd be surprised if there was an underlying hull problem.
More likely the bonding failure along the bottom has caused more leverage to be exerted on the sides of the glass when going through the rough stuff.
As jfm has said, getting the new glass bonded in properly will be critical.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks chaps for for your helpful replies which I would like to respond to as follows

Unfortunately there are no markings on the glass of any kind which would indicate the manufacturer of the glass. It was one of the things I checked. Even if I knew the supplier they would be very unlikely to hold spares or be willing to manufacture replacements or provide the CAD file because I would assume they have some kind of OEM agreement with Ferretti which would mean I would have to buy any replacement from Ferretti

The boat has definitely not been in any heavy seas, at least not heavy enough to bother a 63 footer, during my ownership and the yard that has lifted it has a very large hoist with double strops at each end so I cannot imagine that the lifting operation put any stresses into the hull which caused the windows to crack

So far no comment on the type of crack or how serious it actually is? As I say the crack does seem to be internal and neither window is leaking (so far). Anybody care to guess what will happen if I just leave it? The main reason I'm asking that is that I suspect that delivery of replacement windows from Ferretti could be weeks/months and the existing windows could be in the boat for a long time yet

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I have a colleague who used to work for Trend, so if you struggle, I'm sure he can find out the spec of the glass that they would use for this type of installation.

Thanks for your email. Reply sent