Cowes Yacht / Ferry crash

[Topcat47]

Re: Whitelink ran around

I don't suppose they were trying to enter via the small boat channel? That would explain how they got where they are and only sank one boat. Probably best not to speculate! eventually the MAIB will Report and we'll know the whole story.

 

[Iain C]

Re: Whitelink ran around

Anyone else find these "jokey" comments about CO32 ratings and insurance a bit out of order? Someone's P&J has just been utterly destroyed whilst sat on it's mooring for goodness sake. And, dare I say it, you have a CO32 out of love for the boat and it's a "heart" boat, not because (dare I say this...sorry Adastra...) it's a mass produced easily replaceable AWB that just makes "head" sense. It's like finding your classic Land Rover or MGB has just been written off, you don't just wander off to the dealership chequebook in hand.

I personally hope that the owner gets exactly what he wants, or at the very least a brand new hull and Jeremy Rogers can perhaps transfer over anything salvageable like the rig and keel. And charter of a similar sized boat until he is back on the water. As it happens, in dinghy insurance circles "new for old" is actually very common on a lot of kit and I know lots of people who have had new hulls.

To be honest, the £200k...compared to the negative publicity, the possibility of the ferry drives needing repair, loss of service, investigation, possible hiring and training of replacement crew...will be a drop in the ocean, and compared to what could have been a horrific injury claim or even worst case, a corporate manslaughter charge, and Red Funnel's insurers should just bloody well cough up IMHO.

 

[Iain C]

Although to add a bit of balance...

 

[dom]

Lol, so, throw a fire extinguisher at it and then pull out your ....ahh, there’s the problem this side of the pond

 

[photodog]

Re: Whitelink ran around

Just read that the owner of Greylag is asking for£200,000 to cover replacement, i would guess it was quite a new boat .

Plus he had lots of stuff on board.

His dingy.
A nice used mercury 3.3 outboard.
Binoculars.
Bits in the chart table.
A bottle of Aldi scotch and three tins of lager.

And of course a selection of fray bentos pies.

It all adds up.

 

[dancrane]

Although to add a bit of balance...

Glad you added that Iain, I was afraid humour had sunk irrecoverably, with the boat.

I've no doubt Greylag's owner is cut-up about the shocking demise of his boat, I certainly would be.

I also know that Red Funnel's virtually unquestionable culpability, guarantees him a nice replacement.

Given that the owner himself seems already to have discussed her value (as he sees it), I'm hopeful he'll get over his sadness.

 

[lw395]

Re: Whitelink ran around

Anyone else find these "jokey" comments about CO32 ratings and insurance a bit out of order? Someone's P&J has just been utterly destroyed whilst sat on it's mooring for goodness sake. And, dare I say it, you have a CO32 out of love for the boat and it's a "heart" boat, not because (dare I say this...sorry Adastra...) it's a mass produced easily replaceable AWB that just makes "head" sense. It's like finding your classic Land Rover or MGB has just been written off, you don't just wander off to the dealership chequebook in hand.

I personally hope that the owner gets exactly what he wants, or at the very least a brand new hull and Jeremy Rogers can perhaps transfer over anything salvageable like the rig and keel. And charter of a similar sized boat until he is back on the water. As it happens, in dinghy insurance circles "new for old" is actually very common on a lot of kit and I know lots of people who have had new hulls.

To be honest, the £200k...compared to the negative publicity, the possibility of the ferry drives needing repair, loss of service, investigation, possible hiring and training of replacement crew...will be a drop in the ocean, and compared to what could have been a horrific injury claim or even worst case, a corporate manslaughter charge, and Red Funnel's insurers should just bloody well cough up IMHO.

No, asking £200k would be taking the piss for an old boat, end of.
We may be taking the bloke out of context, maybe he's just commented on the high price of new Co32s.
Equally, if you've got one which is really well sorted, you would want more than the ebay value of the average one with lots of clapped out gear.
Possibly the most over-rated production boat ever?

 

[Iain C]

Re: Whitelink ran around

Well he's owned it since 1978. So in that case he may have had her since she was new.

Park the £200k for a second. If his boat was a BenJenBav which he'd had from new and it had got shredded in the worst way possible and it could be replaced with a new one, then IMHO that's what he should get and no-one would bat an eyelid.

The only piss taking IMHO is a commercial ferry operator who can't seem to get into one of the only two ports they serve without trashing yachts, and possibly Mr Rogers for charging £200k for a small Contessa.

I wonder if Greylag's owner actually had the Red Funnel cheque for £200k in his hand, would he actually order a new CO32 or something much bigger and newer (in which case, a degree of urine extraction is happening) but if he says to RF "speak to this bloke in Lymington, and tell him I'll have it in white and call it Greylag 2" then crack on and good luck sir.

Either way the bloke has my absolute sympathy. I owned my last boat for 8 years, she had vast sentimental value to me due to a departed family member/former owner, and I was so happy that she was sold to a friend who looks after her very well and keeps her 50 yards from my new boat. It would have been utterly heartbreaking to see her end up like Greylag...after 40 years the bloke must be absolutely gutted.

Yeah yeah, they're just fibreglass...that's why we call them names, call them she, and talk to them every so often...

 

[doug748]

Re: Whitelink ran around

Well he's owned it since 1978. So in that case he may have had her since she was new.
...

It seems to be a '78 boat so I guess he has had it from new. I would also be looking for substantially more than the cost of an unknown, untested average replacement boat.

 

[Boat2016]

Re: Whitelink ran around

Plus he had lots of stuff on board.

His dingy.
A nice used mercury 3.3 outboard.
Binoculars.
Bits in the chart table.
A bottle of Aldi scotch and three tins of lager.

And of course a selection of fray bentos pies.

It all adds up.

 

[AndrewL]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this .. about 3 or 4 years ago Red Funnel did something very similar in Cowes harbour. It was just after the new tidal gauge was installed which marks the entrance to the small vessels channel.

One of the ferries hit the aforementioned tidal gauge, leaving it at an angle. The ferry went on to hit at least one of the moored keelboats, taking the rig with it. The mastless yacht sat on it's mooring for the remainder of the season. I know it was reported in the local papers at the time. As far as I can recall there was no fog that time.

In my opinion the owner of Greylag is right to start by asking for £200k, they can only argue down. If he gets it then well done to him. Red Funnel have been owned by a succession of finance/investment businesses, they deserve no sympathy.

 

[LadyInBed]

It's a very traumatic experience to have your old but loved pride and joy bisected, hope he gets every penny.

 

[lw395]

Re: Whitelink ran around

....
The only piss taking IMHO is a commercial ferry operator who can't seem to get into one of the only two ports they serve without trashing yachts....

There is a basic problem with IoW ferries that ever more capacity is required via a small number of ever more crowded ports.
Hence bigger ferries which virttually fill the river at Lymington, multi-deck ferries out of Portsmouth which don't handle too well in a breeze, lots of pressure on turn-around times etc. etc etc.
The ferries are under a lot of pressure to run a reliable service, not stopping for a bit of fog or wind.
Maybe they need to make more space for the ferries to run safely, get rid of the yacht moorings etc?
The IoW in any serious country would have had a bridge or tunnel decades ago.
But the place is so mickey mouse they can't even sort a chain ferry across the river.

 

[Tomahawk]

Re: Whitelink ran around

Indeed.
The Dutch built a tunnel between Middleberg and Breskens some twenty years ago. We used to build. Now we talk about protecting the environment.

 

[Uricanejack]

I have no experience and little knowledge of radar. Can it give an accurate position in fog rather than just a warning of objects ahead? If it's a case of taking bearings via the radar, that will take a few moments, rather than the instantaneous confirmation of a plotter, wouldn't it? If they have ECDIS, wouldn't they have radar as an overlay on the plotter in addition to radar screens?
Uricane Jack's very iinformative post implies that there might be as few as four people as operating crew. IF that's the case it's easy to see, for me at least, that they could all become occupied looking out of the windows rather than monitoring the electronics.

Looking out the window in restricted visibility is still the primary means of keeping a good lookout. The focusing to much on the electronics and forgetting about the windows is often found to be part of the problem. which is why a person acting as a dedicated lookout is considered a primary function of a good navigational watch particularly in restricted visibility. The lookout does not have to be on the bridge. Hearing is a primary function of a good lookout as well.

GPS is probably more accurate than RADAR but GPS is not an observation. RADAR is an observation.

Typically, RADAR range combined with a visual bearing used to be considered the most accurate observation
Followed by two RADAR ranges

Large Commercial vessels typically have gyro compass which their RADARs are synchronized with. Bearing accuracy is not as good as range accuracy but still considerably better than my little Furuno.

On Typical large ship. Good practice, once upon time long ago would include the 2 nd or 3 officer keeping a manual plot of the ships positions at very frequent intervals, at every alteration of course. Being able to do this quickly and accurately required practice and skill.
Good practice would have the Pilot advising the Ship Master based on local knowledge conning the vessel, While the OOW backed them up by keeping track of the ships position course and speed using traditional navigation. If there is an error or miscommunication with pilotage. The navigation catches the error.

I have heard Princess required plots at half the time interval to the nearest danger.
In pilotage water this could be every minute or two. Full multi cross positions plotted.
Is this still expected with modern electronics? I can’t see why not? But I am way to old and out dated to know.

A ferry on a run of this nature is being “Piloted” rather than “Navigated”. The Master or the Mate, are acting as their own Pilots. Using local knowledge. Good practice would be for the "Pilots" local knowledge to be backed up by Navigation.

I would be quite surprised if full position plotting on charts was being routinely practiced. If not, I wish them good luck trying to explain why not, to the MAIB.

The techniques usually expected, would include the use of parallel index lines and dead ranges. Together with time passing abeam point A plus distance and course being recorded.
The MAIB may find a practice such as this acceptable in Lui of a full plot on a chart.

To Parallel index.
Select a required distance to pass of Point A and draw it on the RADAR screen. Very similar to the chart question plot the course to steer to pas a required distance of point A. It's a tangent to a range, parallel to the desired course.

Today’s RADARs. do this using electronic lines set up as tangents to a range circle from the vessels position on the screen parallel to the required true course.

PI lines and Dead Ranges can also be used very effectively to mark limits.

Parallel indexing is pretty accurate. The accuracy does depend on definition and topography but is a well-recognized and expected practice.

Continue along required course until a RADAR range from
Point B or anther parallel index on the next course of point B

Simple?
Actually, you would be surprised how many certified mariners have trouble with this

A “Pilot” or ferry guy conducting his own “pilotage “probably is very familiar with the RADAR picture on his route and may be able to judge exactly where they are just by glancing at the screen.

Probably quite accurate, but prone to the possibility of significant error and not verifiable.

Commonly referred to as the use of scanty RADAR information.
Trying to explain this to the MAIB just ain’t going to fly.

Good practice would be to have good PI and Dead Ranges known and monitored by both “Pilots” using the familiarity with the route as a back up to tell them something is wrong rather like using the electronic as back up to indicate something might be wrong

It is human to err
All humans make errors
Good practice helps spot the errors

Properly used RADAR is very accurate.
Improper use can lead you up the garden path with false sense of security.

 

[Uricanejack]

Re: Whitelink ran around

Suprised they didn't know when looking at depth sounder, it was common practice to practice blind nav in that area, following a contour & knowing you were in the main channel when the depth increased, then came back up when you got across to the other side. They should have asked someone from UKSA to con the ferry.

I know you jest, A good jest has some truth to it.

I have seen it posted many times here. The YM is all about crew management

A common problem with double ended vessels using propulsion systems at both ends. The wash from the forward end passes under the vessel. Causing interference with depth sounders. Resulting in very unreliably depth sounders which sometimes only work when the ship is shut down in the dock. I don't know how the depth sounder on these vessel is affected but I wouldn't be surprised if it just doesn't work underway.

 

[Angele]

Am I being picky in saying that the wreck buoy doesn't conform to spec?

[h=3]Characteristics[/h]The buoy has the following characteristics:

• A pillar or spar buoy, with size dependent on location.
• Coloured in equal number and dimensions of blue and yellow vertical stripes (minimum of 4 stripes and maximum of 8 stripes).
• Fitted with an alternating blue* and yellow flashing light with a nominal range of 4 nautical miles where the blue and yellow 1 second flashes are alternated with an interval of 0.5 seconds.
• If multiple buoys are deployed then the lights should be synchronised.
• Consideration should be given to the use of a racon Morse code “D” and/or AIS transponder.
• The top mark, if fitted, is to be a standing/upright yellow cross.

* The light characteristic was chosen to eliminate confusion with blue lights to identify law enforcement, security and emergency services.

https://www.trinityhouse.co.uk/mariners-information/navigation-buoys/emergency-wreck-buoys

Obviously yellow paint was cheaper, or their stock of blue was running low.

 

[dom]

Obviously yellow paint was cheaper, or their stock of blue was running low.

Nah, they just specified a paint with an incorrect stripe width

 

[DJE]

Re: Whitelink ran around

It's hard to see why the ferry should be able to get far enough off track to hit a mooring area.
I would assume radar is their primary means of positioning in the river?
....................................
Maybe some bad boy in one of the cars on the ferry was running a GPS jammer, didn't want someone to know he'd taken the car to the island or something? Nicking a car with a tracker?

Or simply using GPS chart plotter. Absolutely no reason why it shouldn’t be possible to keep a ferry within a corridor of 2x beam at all times every trip, using GPS (before allowance for avoiding other traffic).
Clearly radar is essential backup for poor visibility, as is depth. But (with suitable operating procedures in case of very rare signal outage) modern GPS does mean knowing position very accurately - certainly not getting a long way off the fairway.

The big worry about relying entirely on GPS is that it can very easily be jammed.

 

[Concerto]

Nah, they just specified a paint with an incorrect stripe width

Did not know you could not buy striped paint. Tartan paint is also very difficult to find.