Cowes Chain Ferry Madness

prv

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I wonder why they cannot instal an electric side thruster to replace the tug. If the tug has cost over £150,000 so far it must be worth a side thruster amidships?

I‘d go with hydraulic over electric since that‘s how the chain wheels are powered, but it’s a nifty idea.

Don’t think you could just hang a tunnel thruster underneath amidships since the vessel’s supposed to be able to dry out flat on the slip. Maybe use a jet drive each side, welded in as if the hull side were the transom? Depends how the machinery’s arranged inside. I think someone’s posted a GA before, but I can’t be bothered to go looking for it now...

Pete
 

Rappey

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The dartmouth lower ferry just has a boat with its bow secured amidships of the ferry and moves it back and forth quite succesfully even in rough weather.
 

RIBW

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Nothing to do with politics, the company who built the ferry did not do their sums correctly.

That would only be true if the specifier (The IoW or its 'agent') had specified "shall not require any auxiliary propulsion at any state of the tide" or something similar. If the spec said "build a ferry Xm by Ym" then that is what the builder would do. The builder need not have any local knowledge. It could be a Korean yard.
In my experience, the only buyers of large capital cost equipment with skillful specification writers backed up with buyers who hold their suppliers to the contract terms are the BT and the railways.
There are too many examples of Gov't/Local Authority procurement that end in massive cost overruns or failure - start with the NHS. (I live midway between two NHS Trusts. Their massive hospitals are five miles apart. They cannot share patient files. Luckily the ambulance crews are aware of this and are most obliging in taking 999 patients to the one with the patients records).

I would conclude that it is everything to do with politics in that few skilled engineering/scientific/technolgy professionals are engaged in politics and there is no requirement for politicians to have or to develop such skills.
Bob
 

Stemar

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Which is why consultants earn their fees. It isn't reasonable to expect a council to have the expertise to write a difficult technical specification for a one-off product. Now imagine the headlines if they'd spent £20K employing a consultant to do it properly. No headlines in the fact that the ferry would be quietly getting on with the job, saving 10 times that, though.
 

AntarcticPilot

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Which is why consultants earn their fees. It isn't reasonable to expect a council to have the expertise to write a difficult technical specification for a one-off product. Now imagine the headlines if they'd spent £20K employing a consultant to do it properly. No headlines in the fact that the ferry would be quietly getting on with the job, saving 10 times that, though.
Anglican churches in England are exempt from normal planning permission, but have to go through an internal system, which is called a "facility". This is actually tougher than planning permission, and has many steps, but part of the system is that for any significant alteration to a church (and that means anything that affects the structure of the church - including drilling holes to secure equipment), you HAVE to have an architect who is both qualified and who has specific expertise in buildings of the age and type to be considered - every diocese has a list of architects. This architect has to be used from the early stages of asking for permission to do work. Further, at a later stage, every body that may have an interest in the proposed alterations must be consulted - including many special interest groups that most people have never heard of. The result is that we involve professionals from an early stage, and projects are subject to external review through all stages. This is, of course, arduous and (on the scale of church finances) costly! However, the result is that when a project goes ahead, it is well specified and carefully costed. I know all about it because I'm going through it for our church!

If local authorities were REQUIRED to have independent experts on board at the earliest stages of planning (and I'm talking about every stage after "This looks like a good idea!"), perhaps mess-ups like this might be rarer?
 

ashtead

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I do feel the job would have been managed better by the Portsmouth diocese than the iow council which seem to have a capacity for failed projects as evidenced by Ryde ice rink , swimming pool, road at Newport currently , Ryde harbour etc.
 

JumbleDuck

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I do feel the job would have been managed better by the Portsmouth diocese than the iow council which seem to have a capacity for failed projects as evidenced by Ryde ice rink , swimming pool, road at Newport currently , Ryde harbour etc.
IoW Council are skilled professionals compared to Dumfries and Galloway Council who, among other things, has a swimming pool and leisure centre for £17m and then spent and other £16m o council money - on top of a £9m settlement from contractors - repairing it. They spend £28m having a new school campus build so badly that it closed after a month and three other schools had to be reopened. The lastest news is that their Direct Labour Organisation won a contract for trunk roads maintenance and managed to lose £3m on it over two years.

I have regular contact with them in a voluntary role and the level of incompetence and waste is staggering.
 

VicS

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The consultants appointed by IO W Council to to provide marine consultancy services to the Isle of Wight Council for the design and procurement of a new floating bridge were Burness Corlett Three Quays (Southampton) Ltd.,

The requirements are set out in https://www.iow.gov.uk/azservices/d...00-001-Statement-of-Requirements-redacted.pdf

and the technical specification is here https://www.iow.gov.uk/azservices/documents/1335-1335-Floating-Bridge-Technical-Spec-redacted.pdf

Perhaps the clever people on this forum who suggest the builders and their designers did not do their sum correctly can explain the reasons or shortcomings in the design of the new vessel which have lead to the difficulties it has coping with spring ebb tides compared with the previous vessel.
 

mainsail1

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Having read the documents it seems to me that the whole process started from the wrong place. Nobody seems to have thought about whether the size/design of the new vessel would work on the River Medina. There should have been tank testing of the design simulating conditions on the river. Maybe those tests would have shown that the design was not suitable.
 

PilotWolf

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That would only be true if the specifier (The IoW or its 'agent') had specified "shall not require any auxiliary propulsion at any state of the tide" or something similar. If the spec said "build a ferry Xm by Ym" then that is what the builder would do. The builder need not have any local knowledge. It could be a Korean yard.
In my experience, the only buyers of large capital cost equipment with skillful specification writers backed up with buyers who hold their suppliers to the contract terms are the BT and the railways.
There are too many examples of Gov't/Local Authority procurement that end in massive cost overruns or failure - start with the NHS. (I live midway between two NHS Trusts. Their massive hospitals are five miles apart. They cannot share patient files. Luckily the ambulance crews are aware of this and are most obliging in taking 999 patients to the one with the patients records).

I would conclude that it is everything to do with politics in that few skilled engineering/scientific/technolgy professionals are engaged in politics and there is no requirement for politicians to have or to develop such skills.
Bob

Surely there must have been some way to reject it as not fit for purpose?

When I was a paramedic one service had this idea of having A and E staff enter into a computer how many patients they had and then the dispatchers would specify where to take the patient i.e. The quietest or where they're most likely to be seen the quickest. The problem was the staff had enough to do without this and the system often wasn't updated. But crews were instructed to take patients to a specific hospital often passing another on the way, which was actually quieter.

W.
 

JumbleDuck

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Perhaps the clever people on this forum who suggest the builders and their designers did not do their sum correctly can explain the reasons or shortcomings in the design of the new vessel which have lead to the difficulties it has coping with spring ebb tides compared with the previous vessel.
My guess - only a guess - is that it's simply too big and that with a fast tide running relatively straight chains can't hold it in place. So if I was reviewing the calculations I'd be looking very closely at the sideways drag ones.
 

JumbleDuck

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Having read the documents it seems to me that the whole process started from the wrong place. Nobody seems to have thought about whether the size/design of the new vessel would work on the River Medina. There should have been tank testing of the design simulating conditions on the river. Maybe those tests would have shown that the design was not suitable.
Sounds sensible. It would require a bit of ingenuity in mounting the model, testing tanks being designed for things going forwards, but the Haslar towing tank is 12m across so there really should be room to pull a model across as the carriage goes up and down the tank.
 

Giblets

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I seem to recall reading somewhere that the new breakwater was causing increased flow on the ebb as it was restricting the flow out to sea and almost creating a stand upstream but for the life of me I can't find a reference at the moment.
 

RIBW

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The consultants appointed by IO W Council to to provide marine consultancy services to the Isle of Wight Council for the design and procurement of a new floating bridge were Burness Corlett Three Quays (Southampton) Ltd.,
The requirements are set out in https://www.iow.gov.uk/azservices/d...00-001-Statement-of-Requirements-redacted.pdf
and the technical specification is here https://www.iow.gov.uk/azservices/documents/1335-1335-Floating-Bridge-Technical-Spec-redacted.pdf

Vic, Thanks for posting these references – it was interesting to skim through them.
(My interest is sheer curiosity)
Looking mainly for reference to the Medina ebb current at springs, I did a word search for tide/tidal/ebb. The only relevant reference I found was the following:
Quote
G.1.3.2. The Vessel is to be designed so that the service can be maintained under the following combined environmental conditions: -
a. Tidal Stream: Southbound (flooding)4 knots
b. Tidal Stream: Northbound (ebbing)5 knots
c. Wind Speed iwo vessel: Up to 55knots steady wind
d. Max. Wave height: 0.5 metres

Unquote - {I don’t know what iwo means}

Interestingly, the commissioning requirement was:
Quote
G.5.6.12. The Contractor should allow for an operational trial period of three days,…..
Unquote

Other mentions of ‘tide/tidal’ are concerned with crossing times.

If I had agreed to comply with that specification, I would have expected some come back either at commissioning or at some time soon after commissioning if the “three days” were outside the spring ebb window. (In my business, there was a ‘zero commissioning failure’ clause – any failure caused rejection of the installation).

I have no idea how the Cowes situation has been/is being followed up legally/contractually.

Cheers
Bob
BTW: The SoR displays on my computer as based on:-
Rathlin & Strangford Ferries – 1335-1335-10139-00-001-Statement-of-Requirements-redacted.pdf
 
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The consultants appointed by IO W Council to to provide marine consultancy services to the Isle of Wight Council for the design and procurement of a new floating bridge were Burness Corlett Three Quays (Southampton) Ltd.,

The requirements are set out in https://www.iow.gov.uk/azservices/d...00-001-Statement-of-Requirements-redacted.pdf

and the technical specification is here https://www.iow.gov.uk/azservices/documents/1335-1335-Floating-Bridge-Technical-Spec-redacted.pdf

Perhaps the clever people on this forum who suggest the builders and their designers did not do their sum correctly can explain the reasons or shortcomings in the design of the new vessel which have lead to the difficulties it has coping with spring ebb tides compared with the previous vessel.
I'm certainly no expert but the fact is that for many years they had a vessel which worked and to which they could look for a model. If they were going to change that, specifically by making it larger, it shouldn't have been massively complicated to calculate the increase in the underwater surface area and the additional force which would be applied to it by a four knot tide. That in turn would impact on the chains and power needed. I'd like to think that if I were an expert such a calculation ought to have been a doddle, otherwise I wouldn't choose to call myself one.
 

Bru

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Anglican churches in England are exempt from normal planning permission, but have to go through an internal system, which is called a "facility".

Faculty, not facility

And the Ecclesiastical Exemption only exempts churches owned by the Church of England from Listed Building Consent and Conservation Area Consent, all other aspects of planning law still apply.

Local authority planning permission is still required for nearly all external works or alterations (including when something as simple as putting up a notice board), there is no exemption from Scheduled Building Consent etc

My brother is involved with a fomer manorial chapel, now an active ecumenical church, which is with a scheduled ancient monument and the process of getting all the permissions necessary to install an electrical supply to power interior lighting and a modest amount of heating took over three years!

Faculty from the CofE, planning permission, scheduled ancient monument consent, bat licence, archeological impact assessment, newt assessment (there's Great Crested Newts in the manorial fish ponds), arborial assessment (to confirm the proposed slit trench wouldn't affect the roots of the Yew in the churchyard which is subject to a Tree Preservation Order) ... and that's just the stuff i can recall from tedious conversations with the church wardens!
 

penberth3

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…...G.1.3.2. The Vessel is to be designed so that the service can be maintained under the following combined environmental conditions: -
a. Tidal Stream: Southbound (flooding)4 knots
b. Tidal Stream: Northbound (ebbing)5 knots
c. Wind Speed iwo vessel: Up to 55knots steady wind
d. Max. Wave height: 0.5 metres

Is the answer here? i.e. the 'vessel' meets the spec, the stream can exceed 4 or 5 knots, assistance required to operate outside the spec.
 

ashtead

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It would surely be of use to see some evidence of the changed flow but by the sound of matters the construction was to spec it's just the spec which was wrong and who drew this up I wonder and signed off . Ultimately the council made the decision to buy something surely . They might try to find reasons foralledging negilgence by the suppliers but I'm not convinced this takes away their responsibility for a horrendously poor decision which has seriously impacted the lives of many east Cowes residents.
 
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