Cool and Cold Water MOBs--It Seems Like Even Easy Recoveries Fail

[thinwater]

Most recently in the US there was this one:
https://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/07/details_released_on_sailor_los.html
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/male-body-recovered-six-miles-belmont-harbor-lake-michigan/

I'm posting here because US sailors don't seem to know much about cold water. I am NOT faulting the crew. That is not the point of the thread.

In a nutshell, a man went overboard in cool water (10C) and immediately sank. His PFD did not inflate. He was not believed to have been injured (witnesses and autopsy). The boat was a fully crewed TP 52 (performance off-shore boat) near the start of a major race in blustery but not bad weather (no reefs in). He was a strong swimmer (triathalons).

There are many examples. We could say they should all wear drysuits, but I'm not going to leap to that. We could require non-inflating PFDs (failure to inflate is not that rare), but that might be a leap.

I've published articles on jacklines and tethers. Yes, you should stay on the boat. Let's leave that aside for the moment. Important, but a separate topic.

It seems like more of these are fatal than should be. I try to stay on the boat, but I'd like to think that falling off at the start of a race is not a death sentence. I'm thinking this guy didn't think he was in that much trouble until he hit the water.

Is there something wrong with the clothing? Is cold shock causing people to fail quickly? I've jumped in 0C water intentionally in dry suits many times. Nothing to it. I've swum in 5C water a few times to recover gear. It sucked but did not cause spasms... but people vary.
* Do we need some minimum of foam flotation?
* Does the clothing need certain cold water design features? (tight cuffs and thigh straps, like float suits)
* Other suggestions?

Perhaps I should just wear my drysuit more often. It is pretty comfortable, so long as the air is below ~ 10C. But warm air and cold water is a challenge.

Thoughts?

 

[ShinyShoe]

* Do we need some minimum of foam flotation?
* Does the clothing need certain cold water design features? (tight cuffs and thigh straps, like float suits)
* Other suggestions?

Search for Cold Water Shock. It is SUDDEN exposure to cold water that is the issue.
You can be physically fit, Best swimmer. Makes no difference.

The same person, gradually exposed to the same degree of cold will be fine.

An auto lifejacket that works is KEY. That means REGULARLY checking the cylinder is fitted correctly.

Foam will be PITA

Not convinced a suit will be the answer. There will always be a chance a zip is undone etc.

Keeping the person above the water gives them time to get past the initial shock which is where it all goes wrong... if your intial response is to breath in the water in shock you are screwed.

 

[Spyro]

Cold water acclimatisation is something that can be achieved you said he was a strong swimmer and did triathlons but was he used to entering cold water. Unusual for a body to sink unless there is no air in the lungs. You can make your body sink if you blow out all your air. This can be demonstrated in a pool you can sit on the bottom if you exhale all your air but if you don't and you remain motionless you will float to the top. I like to go in for swim in the sea every so often just to keep up my acclimatisaion in the off chance that one day I may fall in it won't be such a shock. I don't find it worrying as I used to swim competitively when I was young, I used to windsurf a lot so I'm comfortable in the water that might not be the same for everyone. Your friend may have been knocked out or swallowed a load of water when he went in. The fact that he sank right away is a bit odd.

 

[thinwater]

Search for Cold Water Shock. It is SUDDEN exposure to cold water that is the issue.
You can be physically fit, Best swimmer. Makes no difference.

The same person, gradually exposed to the same degree of cold will be fine.

An auto lifejacket that works is KEY. That means REGULARLY checking the cylinder is fitted correctly.

Foam will be PITA

Not convinced a suit will be the answer. There will always be a chance a zip is undone etc.

Keeping the person above the water gives them time to get past the initial shock which is where it all goes wrong... if your intial response is to breath in the water in shock you are screwed.

I understand cold water shock, but perhaps it is an oversimplification. For example, jumping in 0C water in a dry suit is not a shock. Thus, if there was simply a way of slowing water ingress, there would be no shock, only discomfort.

Saying foam is a PIA is an over simplification. I find inflatables annoying around the neck and I am not the only one. How much foam? Fitted how? It's just a back-up.

I've opened a zipper on a dry suit. Not great, but no shock, since the water comes in slowly.

The question is, could and should foul weather gear be designed to address this? The notion that one set of foulies can work optimally from 25C to 0C is silly on the face of it. Perhaps that is the fallacy.

 

[thinwater]

If the cold water "gasp" reflex is instantaeous, and that is what caused the man to quickly sink, would an inflatable vest solve the problem entirely? His head will go underwater first, he will have a lung full of water, and he will still be gasping. I'm sure the PFD is great help, but perhaps this is why we find bodies in inflated vests. They actually drown before it inflated. Weird, but I think this has basis.

You need to stop the gasp reflex, and the only way to do that is to delay water ingress for critical seconds.

 

[maby]

How times have changed! I did my RYA dinghy sailing certificate fifty years ago on one of the reservoirs to the north of London when I was in my early teens. We did our capsize practice in late December - there was actually ice on the water that we had to break to launch the Wayfarers. We were told to bring our pyjamas to wear and we did three practice capsizes each - I didn't know it was possible to be so cold! I assume that in this namby-pamby H&S world, this would now be frowned upon!

 

[[70521]]

Is there a toxicology report?

What drugs, prescribed and prescribed was the chap taking?

What type of Personal Flotation Device was he wearing?

When was it last tested?

Who tested it?

Lots of unanswered questions about this report. Does the US of A have something like the UK Marine Accident Investigation Branch that investigates fatalities of this type.

Personally, I have my life jackets professionally serviced by the manufacturer every year and replace them every five years, much to the surprize of others but I see it as my last line of defence should I end up in the water. I came out of the dingy a couple of years ago in September and the water was warm. In the five minutes I was in the water my strength was sapped, thankfully I was pulled out by a nearby boat.

 

[[70521]]

I assume that in this namby-pamby H&S world, this would now be frowned upon!

Thankfully, your instructor did not need to give evidence at a Coroner's inquiry followed by an appearance at Crown Court on a manslaughter charge.

 

[pandos]

If the cold water "gasp" reflex is instantaeous, and that is what caused the man to quickly sink, would an inflatable vest solve the problem entirely? His head will go underwater first, he will have a lung full of water, and he will still be gasping. I'm sure the PFD is great help, but perhaps this is why we find bodies in inflated vests. They actually drown before it inflated. Weird, but I think this has basis.

You need to stop the gasp reflex, and the only way to do that is to delay water ingress for critical seconds.

I went in a few years ago in pretty cold water and for some reason had the presence of mind to concentrate on my LJ inflating,,, as if I knew to just wait.... I think it was a response drilled into me in parachute training to count, check the canopy etc,,,,,,

on reflection I think this saved me from panicking ( I am pretty terrified of water and will not even go into deep end of swilling pool)

auto inflates need to be checked every few weeks , best to get the ones with a zip, several times I have seen mates check theirs to find that the bottle was loose, and on one occasion some roughness on the bottle had worn through the bladder....

 

[ShinyShoe]

You need to stop the gasp reflex, and the only way to do that is to delay water ingress for critical seconds.

Yes - that is what is needed. But If my jacket is unzipped I don't expect the wrist cuffs to make much difference. I may be wrong - but it may be the neck seal that needs to be improved.

Ideally you want the gasp to be with your head above water! Type of auto might increase the chances...

But if your first gasp is under water - but then come above water your second is in air. Not great, but better than nothing... ...you don't fully empty your lungs when you breath out so some air remains. If your LJ doesn't inflate you panic and instead of a second breath being in air it is also under water, you are now panicking more and taking a third and fourth breath under water. There is no air in your lungs at all now.

Personally, I have my life jackets professionally serviced by the manufacturer every year and replace them every five years, much to the surprize of others but I see it as my last line of defence should I end up in the water. I came out of the dingy a couple of years ago in September and the water was warm. In the five minutes I was in the water my strength was sapped, thankfully I was pulled out by a nearby boat.

Most failures to inflate result from the cylinder being loose, so when the tablet dissolves the pin doesn't fire the cylinder or the gas leaks. Annual servicing is not sufficient to check that.

We were told to bring our pyjamas to wear and we did three practice capsizes each - I didn't know it was possible to be so cold! I assume that in this namby-pamby H&S world, this would now be frowned upon!

Well - you may not get cold shock because its not a complete shock that you are hitting the water.
However, you still probably got hypothermic. I'd not call in namby-pamby to say as a MINIMUM they'd need to provide wet suits. I'd question why three times.

I'm not convinced this is something you can fully train your body for. You can be more accustomed to the cold. But caught off guard you'll still gasp...

 

[zoidberg]

In the 60s and 70s rather a lot of fastjet aircrew had to throw the aircraft away and accept a 'martin-baker letdown' and involuntary swim. Rather a lot of these didn't even manage to get into their single-seat liferafts and, despite a rescue helo being sometimes only a minute or two away, drowned before any possibility of hypothermia developing.

Rather a lot of 'sea survival' training of fastjet aircrew went on, in consequence. We all had to jump into an often cold sea from an air-sea rescue launch, wearing cloth overalls and manual PFDs, then inflate and climb into a one-man liferaft. There was training regarding 'cold shock' and the killer 'gasp reflex'. Most, if not all, of the relatively fit young aircrew survived the training.

I reckon it saved my bacon, too.

The story, and what might be gleaned from it, is here...... https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/trapped-under-a-dinghy

 

[westhinder]

In the 60s and 70s rather a lot of fastjet aircrew had to throw the aircraft away and accept a 'martin-baker letdown' and involuntary swim. Rather a lot of these didn't even manage to get into their single-seat liferafts and, despite a rescue helo being sometimes only a minute or two away, drowned before any possibility of hypothermia developing.

Rather a lot of 'sea survival' training of fastjet aircrew went on, in consequence. We all had to jump into an often cold sea from an air-sea rescue launch, wearing cloth overalls and manual PFDs, then inflate and climb into a one-man liferaft. There was training regarding 'cold shock' and the killer 'gasp reflex'. Most, if not all, of the relatively fit young aircrew survived the training.

I reckon it saved my bacon, too.

The story, and what might be gleaned from it, is here...... https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/trapped-under-a-dinghy

A sobering story. Thanks for sharing. And well done!

 

[BobnLesley]

...a man went overboard in cool water (10C)...

Thoughts?

My connection's too slow to open the links, but mentioning Chicago I assume it was in the Great Lakes?
A couple of years ago I was obliged to quickly jump into the water when we were sailing in Maine at mid-afternoon on a 'typical' August day, the air temperature was perhaps 26-28C whilst the water was 9-11C. In those conditions 10C water is not 'cool' it's ferking freezing; I was still cold when I went to bed six hours later. I knew what was coming before I hit the water, but should you fall in unexpectedly I can easily see 'cold shock' getting you.

 

[thinwater]

Is there a toxicology report?

What drugs, prescribed and prescribed was the chap taking?

What type of Personal Flotation Device was he wearing?

When was it last tested?

Who tested it?

Lots of unanswered questions about this report. Does the US of A have something like the UK Marine Accident Investigation Branch that investigates fatalities of this type.

Personally, I have my life jackets professionally serviced by the manufacturer every year and replace them every five years, much to the surprize of others but I see it as my last line of defence should I end up in the water. I came out of the dingy a couple of years ago in September and the water was warm. In the five minutes I was in the water my strength was sapped, thankfully I was pulled out by a nearby boat.

Yes, there is an investigation in process. Much like MAIB, it will take most of a year.

 

[thinwater]

Yes - that is what is needed. But If my jacket is unzipped I don't expect the wrist cuffs to make much difference. I may be wrong - but it may be the neck seal that needs to be improved.

Ideally you want the gasp to be with your head above water! Type of auto might increase the chances...

But if your first gasp is under water - but then come above water your second is in air. Not great, but better than nothing... ...you don't fully empty your lungs when you breath out so some air remains. If your LJ doesn't inflate you panic and instead of a second breath being in air it is also under water, you are now panicking more and taking a third and fourth breath under water. There is no air in your lungs at all now.


Most failures to inflate result from the cylinder being loose, so when the tablet dissolves the pin doesn't fire the cylinder or the gas leaks. Annual servicing is not sufficient to check that.


Well - you may not get cold shock because its not a complete shock that you are hitting the water.
However, you still probably got hypothermic. I'd not call in namby-pamby to say as a MINIMUM they'd need to provide wet suits. I'd question why three times.

I'm not convinced this is something you can fully train your body for. You can be more accustomed to the cold. But caught off guard you'll still gasp...

Curiously, all PFD testing is with a victim jumping feet-first. I wager 95% of sail MOBs are head first, and from the deck of a boat, I'll bet your head goes 6 feet underwater at least. I've been doing some MOB testing lately, and that is generally how it goes. The vest will not bring you up for a 4-6 seconds. That is a LONG time if you are gasping.

Yes, a neck seal--not a high collar--is needed. A standard feature on near-water work suits. I often wear a drysuit in cold weather, certainly in weather or racing.

Cold shock and hypothermia are totally different. The latter is easy to devise tests for. The former would be quite dangerous to test. I'm thinking that is why there is not much in the literature.

 

[thinwater]

In the 60s and 70s rather a lot of fastjet aircrew had to throw the aircraft away and accept a 'martin-baker letdown' and involuntary swim. Rather a lot of these didn't even manage to get into their single-seat liferafts and, despite a rescue helo being sometimes only a minute or two away, drowned before any possibility of hypothermia developing.

Rather a lot of 'sea survival' training of fastjet aircrew went on, in consequence. We all had to jump into an often cold sea from an air-sea rescue launch, wearing cloth overalls and manual PFDs, then inflate and climb into a one-man liferaft. There was training regarding 'cold shock' and the killer 'gasp reflex'. Most, if not all, of the relatively fit young aircrew survived the training.

I reckon it saved my bacon, too.

The story, and what might be gleaned from it, is here...... https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/trapped-under-a-dinghy

Good story. But they didn't go in head first. I think that may make a vital difference.

 

[Neeves]

No-one has mentioned age being a factor.

Aircrew tend to be young, dinghy sailors can be even younger. TP52 owners and crew tend to be older. Its easy to be fit (well maybe its not easy ) but participating in Triathlons does not mean, at all, that you have any tolerance of cold, sudden or not (nor does it mean you are really fit - though you might be fitter then most).

I might be very wrong - but (assuming reasonable swimmers, and happy in water) throw a 10 year old head first into cold water and they will come up laughing, throw a 50 year old in the same way and he will struggle.

I'm not suggesting TP52s should be crewed by 10 year olds.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

No-one has mentioned age being a factor.

Aircrew tend to be young, dinghy sailors can be even younger. TP52 owners and crew tend to be older. Its easy to be fit (well maybe its not easy ) but participating in Triathlons does not mean, at all, that you have any tolerance of cold, sudden or not (nor does it mean you are really fit - though you might be fitter then most).

I might be very wrong - but (assuming reasonable swimmers, and happy in water) throw a 10 year old head first into cold water and they will come up laughing, throw a 50 year old in the same way and he will struggle.

I'm not suggesting TP52s should be crewed by 10 year olds.

Jonathan

I've suggested this in other discussions. Multiple causes seem likely. But I can't help my age, also finding myself in the 50-60 bucket.

 

[Neeves]

You cannot help your age - but it might be necessary to accept you, and your (similarly aged) crew, might be more vulnerable.

And when you are racing (and who races - not to win) maybe one needs to remember you are no longer 40.


But are older yachtsmen more vulnerable?

Jonathanv

 

[pandos]

No-one has mentioned age being a factor.

Aircrew tend to be young, dinghy sailors can be even younger. TP52 owners and crew tend to be older. Its easy to be fit (well maybe its not easy ) but participating in Triathlons does not mean, at all, that you have any tolerance of cold, sudden or not (nor does it mean you are really fit - though you might be fitter then most).

I might be very wrong - but (assuming reasonable swimmers, and happy in water) throw a 10 year old head first into cold water and they will come up laughing, throw a 50 year old in the same way and he will struggle.

I'm not suggesting TP52s should be crewed by 10 year olds.

Jonathan

It is not about age or fitness look at this.....https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1483161/Cold-sea-caused-jet-skier-to-die-of-shock.html


the RNLI have a campaign about what to do....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gd6QC2Emrc