Consultation group

[Guest]

The thread on Birchwoods below has produced a lot of good feedback for Birchwood and they should learn from it.

As a thought, I wonder if those of us who would like to see the British boating industry flourish might consider forming some kind of feedback group which companies like Birchwood, Marine Projects, Sealine, Broom, etc., could e-mail for comment on proposed designs, etc. If there were say 100 experienced boaters prepared to give their e-mail address, they could have a real impact in terms of helping out plus have the satisfaction of expressing an opinion.

These companies are commercial entities out for profit and we would, of course be freely helping them with that aim, but equally, this is our hobby and I guess I for one would quite enjoy such am involvement. Does anyone else share that view?

Nick

 

[Guest]

Nick

I think this is a great idea, however I wonder if some of the bigger manufacturers might see it below them to consult with the lowly buyer, but that would be their loss.

You could certainly put my name down.

Neil

 

[miket]

I would be very surprised if the big boys don't already have consumer forums which they liaise closely with when developing new products.

If not, and they want it, count me in.

 

[Guest]

unlike neil, I am fairly that they don't do any of this at the moment. They do consult the dealers abit, not the lowly owners.

You can include me, tho i can't imagine that some wd be too pleased to hear from me. Unfortunately I have a degree in mechanical engineering from a real university not Coventry. So I'm probably disqualified, but would enjoy doing it as you say Nick. And I promise I would much better behaved than this!

Mind you, then I'd be able to vent my spleen in private, not on the BB or in MBY, so much better for them.

Spose at the rate we're going, I spect they'll call us in soon enuf.

 

[Guest]

Re: Can\'t be free?

Nick, can see the point abt free involvement. But

1. Commercial orgainsations often can't help but feel that free advice is worthless. Top consultants don't boast to one another about the quality of their advice, but on their fabulous daily chargeout rates.

2. Boatsellers need to know that their good ideas stay private, never ever going elsewhere. Dunno how keen they wd be to let it be emailed around in the least little bit. Put another way, I'll show customers new software in the office, but they can't have a disk to take away. Hence v private websitey thing or visits, plus confidentiality hush hush NDA's. (non discolsure agreements) which cost money even just expenses. And you're in scotlland.

3. I'm ready to move on, and give a lashing to the princess v65, so will await your instruction as to when/if to put in up on the BB.

 

[Guest]

A very good idea although it can go badly wrong. A few years ago Ford held dozens of consumer clinics.They then used the results to design the Mk4 Escort which was widely regarded as the worse car in it's segment. The customer doesn't have the vision to advise on new design. The most innovative ideas come from individuals not committees.

Didn't one of the big boatbuilders insist that all of the design team tried to live on their boats?

Doug

 

[jfm]

Nick, nice idea, would be happy to join in. Some thoughts:

1. The cynic/practical side of me thinks they'll never take it up. But I'd like to be proved wrong on that. Would be nice if MBY would print this thread too, to air your idea

2. Miket I think you'd be surprised. They think they get customer feedback but really they don't, they just get dealer feedback and do some modelling so they get an overall view of what sizes of boat the market wants and the demographics of their existing customer base (as many customers trade up within the same brand)

3. On my recent visit to Fairline at Oundle over lunch with manufacturing director and CEO I was amazed how out of touch they were with customers. Eg they told me nonchalantly they were stopping navy blue hulls, like it didn't matter. Eek I yelled that's like ferrari stopping red paint. Yet even though I explained this would materially influence my next purchasing decision they didn't seem to take the feedback seriously. If it was just me it wouldn't matter, but I bet loads of people think the same on blue hulls?

4. I get impression this BB combines many years real boating experience with perception of latest style and "soft" appeal of products. But most of all we are customers. Fairline told me that apart from boat mags they run their ads only in the BMW and Mercedes owner freebie mags. BA inflight business class magazine (used by Sunseeker) too expensive they said. They thought BMW/Merc was a good way to reach their target market. I guess that gets them 10% of the way there but surely your group would help them fill in some gaps in reaching their customers

5. Actually we all jump to conclusions about what manufacturers want, ie world domination etc. With Sealine you can figure the shareholders motives easily because it's a financial owner. I forget now who the shareholder of Princess/Fairline is (same shareholder owns both). And I think Birchwood is very privately owned so they might have different views on investing in new hulls, or praps absolute limit on access to capital etc etc. Now we can still give our feedback but we need to remember that some of our suggestions might be preferred more by one type of shareholder than another

Matts, small world, my degree was Mech Eng too, Imperial College London, mid 1980s. Howsabout you?

JFM

 

[Guest]

Don't I recall that the Escort topped the British best selling car charts for its entire production run? It may have been crap but it was popular, thus proving that purchasing decisions are not necessarily logical!

Nick

Nick

 

[jfm]

Re: Cause and effect

Hmmm but I don't think the cause and effect is at all proven in the MK4 Escort case, I mean I'm not convinced it was a bad car BECAUSE of the use of customer feedback

Making the design team live on the boats is a great idea, but I suspect many of the mainsteam builders dont do this. Sealine, Fairline are in the midlands so workforce not generally boaters, and many senior Fairline people are not boaters and hardly ever go on them.

JFM

 

[Guest]

Bizarre isn't it! Most private buyers go their local dealer. I used to live in Wiltshire where the local dealer was Peugeot. Nearly everyone drove one! I suppose Ford having more dealers than anyone might have something to do with it. No getting away from it though, it was a horrid car.

Doug

 

[Guest]

Re: Cause and effect

AFAIR from the expose in Autocar there were a number of mules presented to various consumer clinics. Virtually everyone chose the evolutionary design and no-one the revolutionary design. Hence we got a safe boring car built down to a price and not up to a standard. Having learnt their lesson Ford replaced it with the Focus. Generally considered one of the class leaders.

I guess it must be Princess who send their designers and engineers to live on their boats. Isn't it intriguing that it always seems to be Sealine that come up with the innovative touches.

Doug

 

[jfm]

Sealine a good example

....agree Sealine have innovative touches (as well as some questionable touches like wobbly hardtops) but they too need a serious dose of customer input to eliminate ugliness and caravan feel. In the flybridge market, I personally think their combination of aft cabin and aft cockpit is fab, but I still wouldn't consider buying F44 (I think that's the name of it anyway) becuase too much else on the boat is bad. The T46 is getting there but even that product's appeal is still dragged down by the duffers in the model range. That's what's so disappointing and why Nick's idea is so good, I mean they get so much right but then spoil it by getting a few important things wrong. And with Sealine I do not think they have yet lost as much brand equity as Birchwood, in other words if Sealine fixed the ugliness and other stuff they could instantly have a fab product with an acceptable brand.

JFM

 

[Guest]

Re: oop north

Leeds, v early 80's.

Agree with all yr thoughts, cept we mustn't say "least of all we are customers". This really turns me off. Whenever anyone says, "but I'm a CUSTOMER" I say, yeah, the customer is King. Kings pay the right money (no, not a discount, not cos you paid for other stuff) and hence can be shitbags if they want. OR they can be v nice and regal and get lots for free. Not both. So, can't assume massive knowledge of motorways cos we usem, likewise boats. Have to work another way.

Also this could look a lot like a union or (aargh) a User Group and feared/despised by manuf's. sepret post below/wherever.

 

[Guest]

Re: money realism

For mauf's this sounds like a union, and v wary.

So,
1 membership fees pls, and design advisory sub commitee
2 teethy mebership, slingem out with massive claim
3. cheapy insurance for proven current members not crappo few percent like rya
4. then get manuf's as affiliated members, and all the benefts of er giving jfm large lunch etc at v reasonable rates.
5. Boardroom bustup with disagr re summink trivial, and sell tapes to ch4 £££.

 

[hlb]

Good idea Nick. Can I be the bloke that tests them to distruction and finds all the bits that dont stand up!!

But on a serious note.
I'm a designer and manufacturer of plastics, mainly for the furnitue industry.
For 10 years I've been trying to promote a type of product
to some of the major PLC's.
No go, not interested and go away and spend fortunes to produce this duff silly idea that wont work and then look stupid.
Anyway last week at my own expence I made the product
that I'd been expecting them to go for for ten years.
Today I gets two phone calls from chief designers.
Oh wonderfull!! Fantastic. Now change it all and do this!!
ERR well can we just get together and find colours and wood grains that match and save loads of money for you.
Naa cant do that, thats all decided now by the mail order Co.
So now its all long lead times, special order and then probabley too expencive for them for a nats whisker of shade of wood and thats to a duff twenty year old design cos its one pence PSQM cheaper.
I used to design products in conjunction with one designer at the customer end. Now theres thirty of them, all sticking an oar in.
No wonder Birchwoods finish up with windows all over the place.
Naa I'd like to join your team but from experience it would just add to the dogs dinner effect of throwing more spanners in the works.
Better to say nowt and let the buggers go bust just like they did when Marine Projects came on the scene.
Now its somebody elses turn to start from scratch and get the thing right, leaving the PLC's to go W--K themselves into oblivion.

Haydn

 

[Scubadoo]

Excellent idea and count me in. However I do wonder whether they are bothered about customer feedback-opinions. Back in January this year I wrote to the chairman of Sealine about my two years of experience from buying a new Sealine to the problems and quailty. I listed 20+ faults and gave opinion on each fault, simple things like why use different screws for fixing the fuel filler cap etc. Also gave my opinion on customer service (lack off) from their main Hamble dealer and my general view of their boats.

I received a letter back from the Finance Director explaing the chairman was away and will write to me on his return upon investigation, six months later I have heard nothing.

RM.

 

[Guest]

Count me in.

I have owned both Fairlines and Sealines and to date I agree with the other comments about a distinct lack of interest by the manufacturers to comments / criticism. The problem is that we are a captive audience who accept compromise as I have yet to find a boat that has everything that I want.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Nice idea, Nick and I'd love to be a part having owned Fairlines, Princesses, Sealines and a Broom but, being a cynical git, why should the manufacturers take any notice of us when they dont even seem to take notice of their own customers
The fact is that it's commercial forces that count and with healthy order books, most manufacturers will simply think they must be getting it right. If, we, as users, want to improve the product there's really only two ways. Vote with your feet and buy somebody else's product or give maximum publicity to product failures in order to shame the manufacturers into taking action.
With regard to this latter point, its the magazines which should be exposing the industry's failings in a far more critical way and, maybe, rather than feeding back info to the manufacturers which will probably be ignored, we should be feeding that info to the boating mags and encouraging them to publicise problem areas

 

[Guest]

Two points. Firstly, I had only considered that here was a chance for manufacturers to get a bit of free market research from their buying public. If they chose to use the feedback, fair enough if not then that is for them. I just thought it would have helped Birchwood, for example, with their window design before commiting themselves to going into production with something which many people appear not to like.

Secondly, with regard to the magazines, a substantial part of their income comes from advertising, especially from the big manufacturers. They cannot afford to be too critical as in effect they are biting the hand that feeds them. This is not how we would like it to be but its life and the mags have a fine line to walk.

Nick