considerations on buying a liveaboard

[Nealo]

Just read an interesting thread on the mobo forum concerning a guy with virtually no boating experience planning to buy a boat to live on. Despite the bias of the forum he received some very interesting advice along the lines of don't rule out yachts/motor sailers, for a variety of reasons. Obviously fuel economy was a prime consideration but also the likelyhood of getting better value for money in terms of size and age of vessel.
Up to this point I had always reasoned that the extra costs of a bigger/second engine in a genuine mobo would be pretty much offset by the rigging costs of a yacht, plus the more substantial build costs - am I way off the mark here? The lad seemed convinced by the arguments anyway I think is off to learn how to sail now!!
My other question could be addressed to any of the forums but I think has more relevance here.
I read an interview recently with the american guy who has the Volvo P1800 (The Saint's car, for those of you old enough to remember) that has done over a million miles. He said that if you want a car to go on for that long, forget about makes, reliabilty stats etc., the most important thing is to buy something you really love, because that will make you want to hang on to the car when things go wrong, as they inevitably will.
I wondered how many members of the forum agree with this as applied to boats, and how does it affect all other considerations? Why I ask is because despite having made a list of all the important factors to consider and then trying to find a boat that ticks most of the boxes, I still find myself drawn instinctively to boats that are less suitable but somehow more appealing...
Of course decisions are never that clear cut but I'd be interested in any comments, particularly if anyone has let their heart rule their head - did they end up regretting it?

 

[silver-fox]

I really do not wish to be rude or dampen your enthusiasm but the questions you pose tend to suggest that you have little or no experience. If that is the case then on what basis can you decide what is important to you in a boat?

The questions you pose are almost impossible to answer.

There are boatyards all over the world with people chucking money and effort at lost causes because of romantic notions not founded on reality. We recently met a young guy that had sunk his life's savings into an old WWII RAF rescue launch that he was going to convert for use making a living taking day trippers around the bay.

He nearly sank on his first sail, was towed back and when I last saw him he was borrowing bilge pumps in a desperate attempt to stay afloat in the harbour. How do you tell a guy that he has sunk everything into a pile of junk?

Being a liveaboard can be fantastic and I recommend it to anyone; I would not want to put you off. Owning, running and sailing a boat requires a level of competence if it is not to end in tears. Even those amongst us that have this competence find it a challenge at times.

Just make sure you get some experience so you understand what you are choosing and ensure your choices are based in reality otherwise your dreams and your money may turn to dust at a speed you won't believe.

 

[highandry]

In answer to the second question my personal view is that as long as the boat that appeals to you, will do what you..not others..want it to do, then buy that boat.
If you're going to spend 96% of your time living aboard in a marina tied to a pontoon and the boat's got big windows for watching the totty, then that's the boat for you. Wouldn't try crossing oceans in it though.
If on the other hand you're going sailing/cruising and the boat's sea worthy, even if not considered by the "experts" as suitable for living on, still buy her. Looking after the boat will be a pleasure not a chore and that will reflect in her standard of upkeep, and in the long run will pay dividends with less financial outlay.

My boat steers astern like a milk crate,and that's on a good day, a nightmare in modern marinas. I'm told a modern wizzer would be more suitable, I could hold cocktail parties in it's cockpit and have three "Bedrooms" (that's what the bloke said he had on his boat)
I wouldn't trade her for two new boats, "Bedrooms" or not.

As long as that boat that you have your eye on is sound and suits you, my advice is buy it.

 

[tobble]

sail v motor

I'm absolutely no expert on this subject, but a few simple sums:

my boat is 27 ft. To re-rig her would be, at a guess, £600-800 for spars, £500 standing rigging, £200 string, (more if doing lots of deck gear, winches etc), £1200 for a basic set of sails. That's probably quite conservative, so say £4000 for a complete re-rig. that's getting on for half the cost of the boat, by the way.

again, I'm no expert, but I don't think £4k will buy you much in the way of a modern diesel engine for a similar size mobo, let alone 2 engines.

It's really horses for courses tho. If you want to sail the south pacific you'll need acompletely different boat to, (to take an extreme example) pottering up and down the Kennet and Avon.

 

[V1701]

Unless you can afford to blow lots of cash on diesel or won't be doing many miles then sail is much better in my opinion. You can't cross oceans in a mobo like you can in a yacht. Get one with relatively new standing rigging, sails and electronics, possibly engine. Have an engine survey as well as the normal (hull) survey when you buy if you're not sure about the engine. Or factor in to your costs the replacement costs for any of the big items that do need replacing. Think about where you will be based, i.e. marina/other and the climate where you will be as well. Think about heating, refrigeration, power (solar/wind). How comfortable do you need to be, some people happily live on yachts not much bigger than 20 feet.
Lastly go and see as many as you can, sail as many as you can and you'll soon have a good idea what you like and want. Enjoy yourself...

 

[Nealo]

Silver Fox - Guilty as charged..! In fact I would admit to having little experience in most areas of life (bearing in mind that it is a relative concept). However, I'm not coming at this from an idealistic wet behind the ears position. I do know how heartbreaking boat ownership can be.

Also, the first house my wife and I bought was a 200 year old mill cottage. We sold it after three years and apart from breathing a huge sigh of relief I vowed I would never again buy an "old" house.
This psychological scar resurfaces with a vengeance whenever I look at boats, but I don't know whether this is an over reaction. I'm sure those of you who live full time on boats don't have the same relationship that I do with my bungalow - hence my second question.

I think Highandry has it about right.

The first question, yes I know it's about what you want to do with your boat and in the long distance cruising stakes yachts win hands down. But some of the answers on the mobo forum were quite interesting and made me think it isn't quite so clear cut if say you were buying a boat and just coast hopping, or just doing the occasional long haul. Accept the point about cost of engines & rigging, but lets say I'm comparing a 35-40 foot displacement boat with a single engine with a similar size yacht of the same age. Would you expect the yacht to be significantly cheaper? I know there are lots of other factors, build quality, fitout etc. to consider, but, much of the advice given to my OP referred to was along the lines of, with limited funds, you will get a newer/bigger/better quality boat if you consider a sailing yacht over a mobo - why not go and see if you like sailing? My question was, is the assumption correct?

 

[V1701]

Silver Fox - Guilty as charged..! In fact I would admit to having little experience in most areas of life (bearing in mind that it is a relative concept). However, I'm not coming at this from an idealistic wet behind the ears position. I do know how heartbreaking boat ownership can be.

Also, the first house my wife and I bought was a 200 year old mill cottage. We sold it after three years and apart from breathing a huge sigh of relief I vowed I would never again buy an "old" house.
This psychological scar resurfaces with a vengeance whenever I look at boats, but I don't know whether this is an over reaction. I'm sure those of you who live full time on boats don't have the same relationship that I do with my bungalow - hence my second question.

I think Highandry has it about right.

The first question, yes I know it's about what you want to do with your boat and in the long distance cruising stakes yachts win hands down. But some of the answers on the mobo forum were quite interesting and made me think it isn't quite so clear cut if say you were buying a boat and just coast hopping, or just doing the occasional long haul. Accept the point about cost of engines & rigging, but lets say I'm comparing a 35-40 foot displacement boat with a single engine with a similar size yacht of the same age. Would you expect the yacht to be significantly cheaper? I know there are lots of other factors, build quality, fitout etc. to consider, but, much of the advice given to my OP referred to was along the lines of, with limited funds, you will get a newer/bigger/better quality boat if you consider a sailing yacht over a mobo - why not go and see if you like sailing? My question was, is the assumption correct?

Would you give a ballpark figure and then we can perhaps better give an opinion?

 

[seanfoster]

I bought my first boat about 20 years ago (a 28ft yacht) although I had fair bit of sailing experience, I had no experience about owning a boat.

It came as a shock to realise how much it actually costs to own a boat, as a rule of thumb, a boat will cost you about 10% of the purchase price per year in maintenance and running costs, then you have mooring fees, insurance, bits you can't do without, etc, etc.

The costs can be more easily justified if the boat is your home (and something I am intending on taking up soon), but please, please do your homework before writing any cheques. The old saying 'owning a boat is like standing in a cold shower tearing up £20 notes' is truer than you think, maybe it should be £50 notes now to take inflation into account!

 

[Nealo]

Ok - consider you had around £40,000. In motor boat terms it's a tricky price range if you want something 35 foot or larger as the boat would almost certainly be from the 1970's. You might get a steel dutch cruiser, popular with liveaboards, less than 30 years old for that sort of money and pick your days for going to sea.

Taiwanese built trawler yachts are starting to appear in the £60-70,000 price range, but again the boat would probably be at least 30 years old.

Less than £40,000 and you would have to be risking taking on a boat of some vintage, or, something less than 35' which seems to be a critical threshold for living aboard, though that's another issue...

What sort of yacht would you get at those prices??

 

[25931]

You could do worse than a Snowgoose - built like a battleship, age no problem if you like the space & the proven record.
Jim

 

[V1701]

Ok - consider you had around £40,000. In motor boat terms it's a tricky price range if you want something 35 foot or larger as the boat would almost certainly be from the 1970's. You might get a steel dutch cruiser, popular with liveaboards, less than 30 years old for that sort of money and pick your days for going to sea.

Taiwanese built trawler yachts are starting to appear in the £60-70,000 price range, but again the boat would probably be at least 30 years old.

Less than £40,000 and you would have to be risking taking on a boat of some vintage, or, something less than 35' which seems to be a critical threshold for living aboard, though that's another issue...

What sort of yacht would you get at those prices??

You mention risking taking on a boat of some vintage. That's sort if irrelevant in that most yachts are GRP and their hulls will last for a long time if looked after properly, and the hull is the thing a survey most concentrates on. You then look at the big ticket items and see if any of those might need replacing anytime soon, as I mentioned earlier.
The older GRP yachts were overbuilt because the properties of GRP as a boat building material were not well known. You could, for example, buy a Rival 34 or even 38 from the seventies and it will be bomb proof providing it has been looked after. You could sail round the world in one. Or a Sadler 34, bit more modern. Then you could buy a more modern still Bavaria, Jeanneau or Beneteau which tend to be more comfortable accommodation wise but more lightly built, which would be quite possibly better for sailing in lighter airs and more manoeuvrable in marinas, for example, that would be a good bet if you were doing UK waters and some channel hopping, maybe the Med, but not really crossing oceans, though people have.
I've only scratched the surface here, a good place to start might be Yachtsnet Archives, which is by no means exhaustive but a useful resource. If I were you I'd go and start looking and sailing soon...

 

[binch]

May I, having lived aboard a boat for 35 cruising years, please say that you make a lot of sense. Good on yer.

 

[pragmatist]

I've only scratched the surface here, a good place to start might be Yachtsnet Archives, which is by no means exhaustive but a useful resource. If I were you I'd go and start looking and sailing soon...

Nice site ! Pity there isn't a little more text about the boats - somewhere we have a printed booklet which did much the same kind of thing (ideal for those seeking a new boat/marque). The pix on this are great - obviously much better than the black and white booklet. Really handy tho I sincerely hope I have no need to go changing boats for a little while. But don't we all love finding out more about boats we've seen/heard of. Thanks djbreeze.

 

[ianj99]

Why I ask is because despite having made a list of all the important factors to consider and then trying to find a boat that ticks most of the boxes, I still find myself drawn instinctively to boats that are less suitable but somehow more appealing...
Of course decisions are never that clear cut but I'd be interested in any comments, particularly if anyone has let their heart rule their head - did they end up regretting it?

I recently bought a 36' steel ketch to liveaboard (a Bruce Roberts design). I viewed 2 Moody 33s and although roomier inside and needing less maintenance, it was the 30year old ketch that took my fancy. I did also want to spend the time working on it and its design to my eyes, makes it a semi motor sailer (it has a wheelhouse or pilothouse, if you prefer) rather than 100% sailboat.

Thanks to 40mm of sprayed foam insulation througout, it suffers from not one sign of damp or mildew. Due to very low temps this winter there was dripping condensation from the hatches and portholes in the evening and overnight during my stays onboard but none elsewhere.

I think the biggest culture shock is the need to avoid using the onboard loo when berthed and always use the marina 'facilities' - its an inconvenient convenience!

I made the right choice though not the most sensible or practical one.
Ianj

 

[Nealo]

Nice site ! Pity there isn't a little more text about the boats - somewhere we have a printed booklet which did much the same kind of thing (ideal for those seeking a new boat/marque). The pix on this are great - obviously much better than the black and white booklet. Really handy tho I sincerely hope I have no need to go changing boats for a little while. But don't we all love finding out more about boats we've seen/heard of. Thanks djbreeze.

I agree & thanks also djb for the advice. The site puts most of the motor boat brokers to shame, & what I also like is the way all the pictures are consistent from one boat to the next so you can make a pretty good comparison.

IanJ99 - I can see why you went for the ketch - I've seen a few Bruce Roberts yachts and there's definately something about them. Also, steel really is the business when it comes to boats I reckon, though I'll probably end up with grp like most. BTW why not invest in a porta potti? You can even pick one up on ebay for next to nothing, empty the cassette every few days in the marina loo (though check it's not septic tank drainage first).

 

[ianj99]

BTW why not invest in a porta potti? You can even pick one up on ebay for next to nothing, empty the cassette every few days in the marina loo (though check it's not septic tank drainage first).

A Portapotti might be an idea. I'll check if its okay to empty it in the marina loos first.

I am thinking of a grey water conatiner for the galley sink as well. I really don't like he idea of polluting the marina and loch with effluent of any sort.

I

 

[Nealo]

A Portapotti might be an idea. I'll check if its okay to empty it in the marina loos first.

I am thinking of a grey water conatiner for the galley sink as well. I really don't like he idea of polluting the marina and loch with effluent of any sort.

I

I really wouldn't worry about your sink/shower water, just use eco friendly products eg Ecover - every boat on the inland waterways discharges grey water, mind you, inland boaters don't have the luxury of being able to empty their holding tanks at sea. If you are really bothered just chuck the washing up water into the ground somewhere - it's good for plant life, apparently!

 

[lenseman]

I recently bought a 36' steel ketch to liveaboard (a Bruce Roberts design). . . . Thanks to 40mm of sprayed foam insulation througout, it suffers from not one sign of damp or mildew. . . . . .

Did you install the 40mm foam or was as it done before you purchased the Ketch and can you tell me any costs or installers please?

 

[ianj99]

Did you install the 40mm foam or was as it done before you purchased the Ketch and can you tell me any costs or installers please?

It was done during construction.

You can buy diy kits from companies such as:

http://www.spray-insulation.co.uk/DIY.htm

I'd certainly insulate a grp hull as well as steel or alloy.

Ian

 

[ianj99]

Just read an interesting thread on the mobo forum concerning a guy with virtually no boating experience planning to buy a boat to live on. Despite the bias of the forum he received some very interesting advice along the lines of don't rule out yachts/motor sailers, for a variety of reasons. Obviously fuel economy was a prime consideration but also the likelyhood of getting better value for money in terms of size and age of vessel.
Up to this point I had always reasoned that the extra costs of a bigger/second engine in a genuine mobo would be pretty much offset by the rigging costs of a yacht, plus the more substantial build costs - am I way off the mark here? The lad seemed convinced by the arguments anyway I think is off to learn how to sail now!!
My other question could be addressed to any of the forums but I think has more relevance here.
I read an interview recently with the american guy who has the Volvo P1800 (The Saint's car, for those of you old enough to remember) that has done over a million miles. He said that if you want a car to go on for that long, forget about makes, reliabilty stats etc., the most important thing is to buy something you really love, because that will make you want to hang on to the car when things go wrong, as they inevitably will.
I wondered how many members of the forum agree with this as applied to boats, and how does it affect all other considerations? Why I ask is because despite having made a list of all the important factors to consider and then trying to find a boat that ticks most of the boxes, I still find myself drawn instinctively to boats that are less suitable but somehow more appealing...
Of course decisions are never that clear cut but I'd be interested in any comments, particularly if anyone has let their heart rule their head - did they end up regretting it?

One advantage of a steel hull I forgot to mention is how very effective a noise barrier steel is, particularly when it has sprayed foam insulation.

One of my liveaboard concerns when in a marina was the noise from other users, frapping halyards*, wind generators etc etc. So I was very pleasantly surprised just how quiet (as well as warm and dry) it was below decks.

Ian
* not every yacht owner takes care to stop this happening - 'day sailors' being the usual suspects!