Compusary Licence, lets thrash it out

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Ok, lets just pretend that I am convinced that there is enough of a problem to warrant compulsary licencing in the UK, (and all speed cameras are good!).

What exactly, in the minds of those who believe in this licence to make everyone compitent to go to sea, should this licence involve. For sake of argument it must be a written type exam, or oral, practical is far to difficult to achieve in one fowl swoop.

I would like to hear views, and if possible example questions, now remember, not all sea going vessels have engines, nor gas, nor electrics, so they are out, not all vessels have to carry safety type equipment including vhf, epirb, lifejackets etc.

This narrows down the process to navigation, but for a 14ft speed boat navigation is from the slip to the skiing area and back for example, the skipper has no need to plot tides, winds, secondary ports. So is navigation also out.

The rowing boat, here is a thing, get a crewed boat that will do 10kts at full whip, should they be licenced, I have never seen the cox studying a chart.

So seriously, I would like to hear views, people keep calling for it, so what should it involve;

please if you are one of those calling for compusary licencing don't just ignore this thread, I am really looking to see what views the callers actually have on this subject...Thank you for reading..........


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

 

[Twister_Ken]

No let\'s watch the rugby instead. nm

`

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[Rowana]

Rugby is >>>

<<< a game played by men with odd-shaped balls!

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[charles_reed]

Compulsory Licences.

There are two diametrically opposite views on this and I doubt you'll ever find a middle ground.

Both have advantages as well as disadvantages - in the States there is considerable admiration for the UK model of voluntary certification and a considerable body of opinion supporting such a move over there.

Personally I think it inevitable that compulsory licences will be introduced in the UK, if for no other reason than for the Treasury to collect cash and the authorities to impose sanctions on the boating public.

The licence will almost certainly be a precursor to any official testing - in fact I see little change in the RYA carrying out the qualifications and a licence being issued on proof of qualification.

In France a few smaller boats require no licence but everyone (especially in motor-boats) has to pass a state-decreed test, mainly practical with a few verbal questions (rather like our old driving test).

Courtesy and safe conning appear to be better in France, though anchoring and coming alongside tend to be less good than in the UK.

I believe there is an official licensing system in Italy, but as with all regulations Italian this is more honoured in breach than observance.

Certainly in all those countries (France, Spain & Italy) in which I have spent any time boat classification, licensing and registration are far more structured and strict than the UK.
We've already had a couple of threads on the anomalies in the EC boat classification, but as an indicator to a totally ignorant public they're probably better than nothing. In France the greatest thrust of the authorities is to ensure these are maintained by a boating public. for instance having out-of-date flares or an un-overhauled life-raft result in an uncomfortable hassle and fine.

So we're really looking at 2 forms of licencing, that of the boat and that of the operator.
whatever happens it will add to the cost of boating - probably greater for power than sail

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[Cornishman]

Re: Rugby is >>>

<<< used to be a game for thugs played by gentlemen, while soccer used to be a game for gentlemen played by thugs. Is this still the same?

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[steve_cronin]

Don\'t.....

....encourage him charles!!!

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[HOMER_J]

Re: Compulsory Licences.

YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[pintobest]

I, for one am willing to put in my two-pennyworth, albeit whatever I say has undoubtedly been said a million times before.
Nevertheless, I am truly convinced there will be licensing, probably on the basis of the current International Cert. of Competence.
It will not effect safety one iota, nor will the examinee ever be required to demonstrate that he/she is aware of the usual courtesies of seamanship (Most of which arose from safety requirerments anyway).
BUT has anybody EVER known of any government declining to introduce legislation simply for the reason that it is unecessary in practice ??
All governments feel they are required to trot out a series of laws to show they are active and have only our welfare at heart (Right - yeah !)
It will, as always be a case of "Don't confuse me (the gov't) with the facts, my mind's made up"
Also, there must surely by definition, follow, a new quasi- police force to ensure that the law is applied. This will, of course eventually lead to yet more restrictive legislation a la traffic police on the roads.
(Eventually the authority granted to harbourmasters (local 'Maritime Police Inspector' ??) to deny egress from a port to boats below a given length in certain conditions etc., etc., etc.)
All of the above will required to be paid for.
But, perhaps I'm just in a sour mood this afternoon ! I should be out on the boat.

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[Peppermint]

Re: It\'s about control

The licence won't make anyone better sailors but it will make you identifiable. Then blame and sanction can be handed out.

If HMG decide to licence boat users it will be revenue positive to the treasury.

The RYA and it's franchised sea schools will be swamped with both trainees and dosh. Remember they are our voice against such measures.

If initial control is established you can expect compulsory registration of vessels, for a fee and mooring taxes by local authorities.




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[Johnjo]

I am totally against any form of licencing !

But feel for certain it is on the way, The only way I can see it working will be through the issueing of moorings and marina berths. And the resulting increases in charges
that will come with it.

No certificate of competance or a licence of some discription, Then no mooring will be made available !
I cannot see any other way to make it work !.. IMHO of course !..

Maybe the less said on the subject the better, walls have ears !...


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[bedouin]

If I thought it would do any good, I would be in favour of boating licences, in the same way as there are driving licences. However I don't see any practical way of enforcing them.

If they were to be introduced then it would end up as just another tax on the law-abiding boater, and they would be totally ignored by the irresponsible people who are the ones who cause all the problems.

So to introduce them would be to increase bureaucracy with no benefit and as such I would be totally opposed to it

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[TheBoatman]

I think that licencing will "eventually" come to pass and it will be driven (IMHO) not by the gov or RYA but by the insurance companies. If they are going to insure the boat they will demand a level of competancy to drive that type of boat and over the typical type of passage.
In most cases RYA courses would cover most types of boat, but not all. PB2, Day skipper, Coastal, YM etc.

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[clyst]

What about trailer sailers, RIBS etc --they dont need moorings !!
Like you say probably some sort of licencing will happen one day . Why not something like the Day skipper standard? At least holders will have been tought some basic seamanship .Cant support the row boat argument (in the original post)that they dont need any qualifications cos they dont go far etc .Dont matter how far you drive your car you still need a basic licence .!!

terry

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

>Cant support the row boat argument (in the original post)that they dont need any qualifications cos they dont go far etc .Dont matter how far you drive your car you still need a basic licence .!!<

This is my whole point, the ridiculousness of it, Should a child on a boating lake need a licence, or is it the end of children sailing alone.

Someone else mentioned insurance bringing it in, well, I would have guessed most claims actually happen in the yard and by theft, I could be wrong. Although I know a boat last year in Porthmadog which was hit by lightning, would training stop these. It is more regulation for the sake of regulation.

But to pull this back on track,

What subject matter should this regulation consist of,

Navigation
mainenance

etc???


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

 

[clyst]

Guess you could compare child on boating lake to same on go-cart track / private land -no licence needed there .
Dont notice the need for training / licencing so much here in the SW but I do believe something should be done in more congested areas like the solent . I'm sure it wont be long !!
Sorry to hi-jack your thread !!

Terry

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[webcraft]

I don't see the need for licensing . . . why not thin the idiots out in the Solent (and anywhere elese where there's a perceived problem) with local byelaws which follow rules of good seamanship, colregs, speed limits etc and give them teeth - huge fines, confiscate boats etc.

A license isn't going to improve sailing skills - look at the roads!

- N





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[clyst]

Good idea but who is going to police it ?? If to get a licence a basic theory test has to be taken and passed then at least these morons will have been taught the basics of nav,seamanship ,col regs etc whereas now if you got the money you buys your boat and away you goes at 40knts ( maybe ) !! There aint no easy solution to it but I bet its introduced before long!!

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[duncan]

A good point that I would like to think will occur but I haven't seen any evidence of rates being underwitten that closely; and that may well be down to the impact on claims experience of qualifications.
However this is probably distorted by the fact that currently people with qualifications almost certainly use their boats significantly more (as an average).

On the general point I think Charles has managed to include just about every issue in his post and I see it the same way.
The only virtuos circle I can envisage is that the revenue raised (assuming it is positive) is ploughed back into on water presence and 'enforcement with education' such as that often found locally - Poole Harbour patrols and the guys patrolling Loch Lomond in a Botnia Targa spring to mind.
I am also of the view that if the sensible things in Local byelaws were all wrapped up into a single piece of UK legislation things would be a lot simpler - then giving local authorites the power to enforce these, or even the responsibility to police them. As an example France's blanket speed restriction within 250m of shore. I believe there is a byelaw applicable to Studland Bay that includes a similar limit but I have yet to find anyone who has read it!

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[Cornishman]

No need for bye laws - the Rules already exist and some harbour authorities enforce them. E.G. don't be tempted to exceed the speed limits in Plymouth or MoD Plod will have you! They are well equipped with radar speed guns and a VERY high speed patrol boat. They have even been know to arrest hi-speed sailing cats, multis etc. I believe Salcombe Harbourmaster is similarly equipped.

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[charles_reed]

We already have it

It's called the ICC and woe-betide you if you go to France without one, le Gendamerie Maritime will take you to the cleaners and back.

In France there is a definite cut-off point - power-boats with less than 4cv (about 5hp) and all open boats of less than (I think) 8m. It's all in Decret 84-810 du 30/08/84 which lays out all the boat requirements (which have been ignored in this thread) as well as the driver requirements.
It is interesting to note that all this is more directly aimed at power-vessels, which are heavily taxed on the Continent.

Perhaps they had their problem with inadequate motor boaters earlier than we did?

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