Compusary Licence, lets thrash it out

Re: We already have it

Err. You don't need an ICC to go to France. Only required if you go inland boating, up rivers or canals.

You will need one if you charter a french registered boat.

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Unsure whether compulsory licences are a good thing, The Boatman made a comment about insurance companies. some insurance companies reward owners who have had training and hold RYA qualifications with lower premiums. They are also known to impose conditions on those that have had none .
It busy waters like the solent and poole harbour ( they have speed cameras there in the summer and do fine those exceeding the speed limit) and other busy areas , especially with a lot of commercial traffic ie high speed ferries etc some compulsory training, regardless of size, to cover col. regs and rules and safety would be useful.On inland waterways and lakes I don't think it is neccessary.
From what I have heard , it is small power boats and sailing vessels that cause commercial ships most problems.

I also though an ICC was compulsory for french waters and additional endorsement required for inland waterways.
Also heard a rumour during summer that french were going to require any vessel crossing channel to hold min. qualification of coastal skipper


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Re: When is an ICC required?

The below is from the RYA website. You do not require an ICC to visit coastal France. You do need one inland (along with the CEVNI endorsement)

-----------------------------------------------

Generally, an ICC is required when navigating the inland waterways of Europe, the main notable exception is The Netherlands. In Holland an ICC is only required by vessels that are either longer than 15 metres and/or capable of more than 20 kph (~ 11 knots). If cruising to Europe to explore the canals and rivers, both categories 'coastal' and 'inland' will be required and so the CEVNI test, as well as proof of general boat handling competence, is needed.


It should also be noted that most European countries insist that vessels navigating their inland waters carry a copy of the relevant local rules. For France, The RYA Book of Euroregs for Inland Waterways suffices, but it does not for Holland or Germany. Those countries insist that their own publications, written only in their native languages, are carried. It is probably advisable to also carry the Euroregs book so that there is an English version of CEVNI on board too.


For coastal areas in Northern Europe and Scandinavia, the ICC is generally not required. Again, there are exceptions and these include Poland and the Baltic States of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. It is also useful to have one in Germany. Conversely, in the Mediterranean an ICC is usually required, particularly in Italy, Greece, Croatia and Turkey. ICCs are not required in Spain on British flagged yachts. However, Spanish harbour masters and other officials are used to their own nationals having to be licensed and so can be difficult to persuade that British flagged vessels do not require them. You either have to be prepared to stand your ground and argue the case or you may decide that it is easier to actually have an ICC. Portugal does require skippers to hold the ICC.




<hr width=100% size=1>For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve the quality of life, please press three
 
I'm not sure there is really an argument here. I can't find anybody on previous posts, or now this one, saying that licensing should be compulsory.

However, there are a number of people saying that training with certification is a good thing, which is a different debate.

Personally, I believe the current position is satisfactory (not ideal), i.e.

- training is beneficial
- experience is a much better way of learning
- licensing is unnecessary, un-enforcable, and would add a lot of cost and little value.

<hr width=100% size=1>The problem is that God gave men a brain and a penis but only enough blood to use one at a time.
 
No, no, a million times NO!

Not unless and until we have compulsory licensing for climbing, fell walking, caving, canoeing, golf (very dangerous - seen how fast those little balls can travel...) cycling (very dangerous indeed) kite flying (dangerous power cables, and a danger to low flying aircraft...) taking control of a childs pram (those things have dreadful brakes and no steering at all!) and gardening (just think of the risk of soil borne tetanus, and all those lethal concoctions in the shed...

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?
 
Re: No, no, a million times NO!

You've forgotten football, and poor Beckham's broken bones. And rugby - wouldn't like to be in Jonny Wilkinson's flight path.
Isn't it time cyclists paid a road fund licence, same with horse riders.
Once stabbed my foot with a fork whilst gardening. In case you hadn't noticed, you are required to hand in to your local authority all those 'lethal concoctions' by 31st December.
I wanted compulsory licences years ago - I would be a rich man by now after examining all those people.

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Weel whit aboot bikes?

What happened to the cycling proficiency test? Maybe there'd be less need for cycle helmets if they still ran it. Still got my certificate .. once used it to Charter a yacht from a well known yacht charter co. they asked me for a copy of any certificates I'd got so I photocopied it and sent it off!

<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
 
New Idea: self certification (bit long)

For non-boaties, it comes as a surprise to the point of disbelief that you need zero qualifications to drive a monster boat (sail or power) up to 24 metres long.

I bought a boat 23 metres long, 2400hp. It's french flagged, but nobody said "oi - you need training and a licence" and when I did get stopped by French gendarmes: the ICC (yonks ago, in a 28 footer, on the thames) was fine. In southern France they all seem a bit mental, use colregs as last resort if at all, even big powerboats with so-called professional skioppers rip around at night with only an anchor light, and some big sailing boats sit at anchor with no light at all : in any given anchorasge less than 50% wil have a light on. So much for a regime in which training is supposedly mandatory. "Regulation" concentrates upon collecting the sailing tax, €10k per year for 23 metres thankee very much.

Of course, training and exams don't stop an accident. But the argument would be hard to resist if a series of inexperienced types with little or no training came to grief. It is precisely that scenario which brought in some of the current road traffic regulations. But even if that did happen, or perhaps even BEFORE it happens, I think there is a better alternative, as below.

My idea was that all new brit-registered boats boat thru a dealer or broker should require a self-certifying form to be filled in, mostly by the buyer. It's the broker/dealers job to ensure that one doc for each boat sold is completed, and they keep these forms.

Buyers sign and confirm (either by list of experience, or quals, or that they'll hire a skipper etc) that yes, they do consider themselves fit and able to skipper the boat, or words to that effect, and that's the end of it. The form should detail the RCD and the buyer then appraised of the fact that this boat is therefore ok for travel such-andsuch distance from safe haven, forexample.

Alternatively, honest buyers (that's most of them) sign that no, they don't really consider themselves able to skipper the boat just yet but will do once delivery happens, when they have done xyz training, or because they'll hire a personal instructor, or because training from the dealer is included or whatever. Perhaps if this answer is given then the form must be eventually married with a subsequent form saying yes, now I can do it ok. Occassional one-off RYA/MCA/whatever inspections of the records would ensure that all industry outlets kept on top of the situation - which is only a few dozen boats max per outlet per season anyway.

I think this would be a suitable solution to avoid govt red tape for the sake of it, avoid a load of base-level qualifications being undertaken for no real benefit - and yet stil catching the unknowing newbie buyer "well, i can drive a car..." who might not think or might not be told that s/he needs some skills and knowledge to start.

Currently, you can buy a boat (especially a powerboat, which seems much more housified than a sailing boat) and not even be aware of the role of the RYA with regard to training. For newbies to boating, the RYA sounds exactly like the RAC.

The idea of self-certificaition also adresses the problem for pressurised boat sales rep who doesn't want to queer a sale by introducing the pesky training issue. So ity would be a good thing for more responsible dealers and brokers. Reputable dealers might already be at risk of losing sales in this way to those sales outlets who don't raise the issue - so there must currently be an unhealthy tendency towards NOT mentioning training when selling a new boat.

Less responsible salesbods can quite legally say that it is straightforward (and, I supose it is, but...) and that lots and lots of boaties don't have qualifications - or of course they can simply not raise the issue at all. Nobody raised the issue of training to me when we bought a 50 footer and at the time owned no boat at all. There are posters on the forums with patently too little knowledge about how their boat works - basic stuff, not ocean passagemaking. I hear other "amusing" (actually, dangerous) stories of people with sizeable boats (yes, a powerboat) asking a neighbour if they had a crosshead screwdriver they could borrow.

Based on zero research, but gut instincts, and personal experience I think that of all those with too little knowledge and training - the majority are powerboaties. Sailyboating looks less sexy and "harder". Sailing is less attractive to the boating virgin which might explain the scoffing regard in which they are unhelpfully held by some raggies. I also think that 100% of that small group buys from the trade - not privately, which would only be tackled by more knowledgeable types.

One or two dealers (whom i know but won't name) are even guilty of promising training as part of the deal - but then delaying training or "forgetting"about it once the boat is delivered. So any free trainnig should be detailed to take place upon or shortly after delivery. I saw more than one 40 footer arrive nexst to us frexample in UK, and they made it clear (by the way they helmed, and later when I spoke to them) that they were making it up as they went along. The dealer (alright, it was Marine Sales) had promised training that never happened, and the owners were narked at this - but having spent all that money they went out anyway, understandable i suppose.

So, if you know you have enough experience, you self-certify your exp upon buying a new boat or a brokerage boat, end of story. If you haven't, it gets pointed up on that form and that you need to do summink about it. If you lie your head off that you have loads of experience, it's on the form, so if an "accident" happens you are more culpable than otherwise. If the dealer promises training, he'll be held to the deal. If you plan RYA or private instruction you need to prove that it took place. If you buy privately, no self-certification is needed.

The real beauty of self-certification is that it costs very little (so no tax needed) as the "problem" is restricted to a few, and is not applicable to all. Self-certification wouldn't upset the applecart and flood the training industry with a bunch of people (probably 90% + of all boaties) doing training for the sake of getting a ticket - when really, its the newbies who should be put (or pushed, or dragged) to be first in line for limited training resources.

Finally, a word to the wise. Although it might be fun, sniggeringly watching and never offering help as obvious newbies "cock things up" doesn't help the situation. It might even spring back in everyones face by hastening more draconian regulation by a government that (currently) includes 100% non-boaties and even non-car-drivers: the drivers of their government cars, and of any other transport they use (trains planes buses and cabs) are very regulated. At the very least, if you see evidently-unskilled skippers but don't want to interfere, i would think that you are doing them and everyone a favour by asking the harbourmaster if they'll have a little chat with them.






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Re: No, no, a million times NO!

Licensing will cause expense and red tape in huge quantities and achieve little or anything towards safety.

Look at all the"Licensed "idiots on the roads.A fool is dangerous wether licensed or not and a sensible person gradually builds up his confidence in small steps.

To a certain extent it is creeping in through the back door for larger craft.A few weeks ago a chap contacted me and asked me to go with him on a short passage in his 60 foot steel motor boat which he was living aboard.Moving from Penarth to Watchet.

Having established it was seaworthy Ihappily agreed.Half way across it became obvious the owner was quite competent and didnt really need me.The reply was that the insurance co. insisted on it.

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Sorry to go off on a "tack" but is there a speed limit between the Breakwater and the entrance to the Cattewater or the narrows at Cremyll ? If there is then the MOD are the most common law breakers. I can't find any reference to one in any publication. And yes Salcombe Harbour Authority do use a speed gun.

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Re: New Idea: self certification (bit long)

tcm
Some post, I almost fell asleep it was so long, BUT I would basically agree with you.

Theres nothing like licensing or regulations questions to get this forum motoring<s>.

Should kids need a licence to be on a boating lake (dahhh) They dont need one to ride a bike on the road, but adults need a licence to drive a car. So if you have a licence to drive a car surely the same licence should allow you to drive an artic? same thing just bigger. (I don't think so).

The same should apply to boats only on a training basis. It amazes me that we Brits are quite happy to comply with French regs re: CEVNI / ICC tickets but we don't want them or anything like them here!

We complain that any snotnosed city types can go and hire a 40+ foot Sunsail yacht and charge around all over the place creating mahem but GOD forbid they should need any training.

I always think that the people that moan about licensing the most are those that have no "official" training, they maybe very expirenced with years of boating under their belts, but when push comes to shove they can't prove it and are frightened to death that they may not be able to?
Even experienced RNLI crews are sent on training courses, and I'm not talking about first aid or radar courses, I'm talking about boat handling stuff.

On a more personel note, when I was about 16 years old, I fished in my own boat out of Ramsgate and I had several of the local fishermen come up to me and tell me that I couldn't possibly be serious as I was only a w/end sailor, that I couldn't possibly know the local tides and marks (although I thought I did). So my answer wasn't to get on my high horse and moan about licences and tickets, I asked them to teach me their trade and when they found out I was serious they were more than helpful. At the end of 4 years of "training" I had to sit in front of a DTI inspector for 3 hours and answer his questions, after I passed not only was I very pleased but so were my teachers? (much alcohol was comsumed including amonst others with the inspector, having first promised him that I would NOT skipper a boat the next day).

The moral of the story is "don't be afraid to match your experience against a known set of rules" because if you pass you will have one of the best feelings of your life.

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We have compulsory licencing... doesnt seem to have made any difference.. the idiots still are there
But the Gov. now gets $25 per year and you have to have your photo taken each year.. yes annual renewal.. the renewal stations are NOT by the Bay or not coveniently located... usual red tape.. !!!!!!
BrianJ

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Gidday Brian

What about really putting them off the whole idea and pointing out the registration fee you also have to pay; also the low alcohol limit (no more drinkies while at sea, which is possibly a good thing).

John



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Re: New Idea: self certification (bit long)

While it will be many a year before licencing will be considered again over here, so is not an issue at all, I will put my oar in when you say that the experienced ones "are frightened to death that they may not be able to {pass}".

I think you will find that the test requirements for any licence requirement will be trivial, just as they are in Australia where, as Brian points out, licencing exists. It will not in any way be like the YM or even as "advanced" as Day Skipper (which is called something else in UK I think, but is less than Boatmaster), it will be such that anybody can pass. So any fear of licencing by experienced boatsmen is more oriented to the conquences and motivations behind licencing than fear of not being able to gain one.

I certainly think, though, that the concept of placing some sort of responsibility on vendors of new vessels, suggested by TCM (I think without hunting back to check), say by having to get a signed declaration of competence from the buyer, has some merit.

John

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A practical consideration

Any law that is unenforceable is a bad law.

There is no 'police' force suitable for checking the papers of vessels at sea or in a harbour. Therefore how would any requirement for licensing be enforced? It wouldn't.

Watched a programme last night about the traffic police in Yorkshire. Can't remember the exact number, but so far this year they have take many thousands of unlicensed and uninsured vehicles off the road - was it 12,000? If, in one county alone, where there is an established force to deal with the problem, more than 12,000 people can drive without complying with the regulations, what chance is there of enforcing a boating licence? None.

PS. You said "The rowing boat, here is a thing, get a crewed boat that will do 10kts at full whip, should they be licenced, I have never seen the cox studying a chart." My daughter coxes, and yes, she does have a chart of the Tideway which shows the best lines, counter currents, etc, for various states of the tide. She doesn't look at during a race, but she writes up notes before a race which she tapes to her leg when racing.

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Re: A practical consideration

What happens in coxless boats? Here you have the situation where the boat is being rowed hell-for-leather and everybody aboard is going backwards<s>

2 weeks ago I instructed on a RYA PB2 course for a local rowing club, their reason for doing this was to be more responsible when they have to drive the support boat in high density traffic areas i.e. Thames tideway.
It seems to me that their approach to the problem was about right, they also mentioned that they felt increasingly that some form of "ticket" was going to be required if they wanted to race in these areas.

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Re: A practical consideration

My daughter coxes, and yes, she does have a chart of the Tideway which shows the best lines, counter currents, etc, for various states of the tide. She doesn't look at during a race, but she writes up notes before a race which she tapes to her leg when racing.<<<

Ok Ken, I stand corrected, I was not trying to belittle rowers or cox's, just trying to find an example of a fast moving vessel powered by humans and almost always within esturies or rivers. I should have used pedaloes /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Good post tcm, good points and an interesting read.

And I am one of those un-certificated types, I did day skipper but for some reason I did not sit the exam, I can't remember why, I think I would have passed, I probably got a better offer, I was 16 at the time I think, easily swayed /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Am I worried that I might not pass a practical, yes I am, I may do things differently, I may cock up on the day and a million and one other things. I also have some manouverability disability which means I have to delegate some tasks, or approach some tasks differently to be able to cope if I am having a bad day (back problems), I am afraid that I will be penalised for this, or even told I am not medically fit to be in charge of a vessel.

So I do have my personal reasons, but I also hope that I am looking also at the big picture too.



<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

TC_COIN.GIF
 
Re: A practical consideration

I did YM, and was not at helm or sharp end during MOB. YM a bit stressy but I am somehow sure your would do okay and pass. If you do actualy command a vessel, whatever disabilities, a decent examnier will see that you do so - and mostly, they are decent examiners. Get a decentish crew. I spect you have one, otherwise volunteer here...

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Nope

Will not rise to the bait


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
As a member of our local C.G search and rescue team I've been involved in quite a few incidents and have to say whilst being in favour of training I am very opposed to any form of licencing, IMHO it could and would become just another tax with yearly renewal a real possibility, As the cost of collection/enforcement would be unavoidably high due to the inevitable red tape I could see it becoming yet another Govenment initiative that once profitable would be farmed out to an outside agency for collection leading to a profit, rather than safety driven organisation being ultimately responsible. In my own case, after 30+ years on the water I'm still learning having worked my way up from a canoe at 10 to my present boat, a 32' sloop, I've not sat any 'test' as such apart from the v.h.f ticket required by law, One day I may consider sitting for my tickets, but I would object most strongly to being told that I had to. Just my opinion, Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me."
 
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