Complete refit costs

[siwhi]

Caution: How long’s a piece of string question

I’d like to know whether any UK yards focus on complete refits, and whether there are any economies to doing this, compared to upgrading as you go along?

Say I bought a 45’ boat from 1985-1990 which needed a new engine, standing rigging, sails, plumbing, electrics including new instruments, chartplotter, autopilot, bimini, davits, sterngland, 4 new winches, deckgear, shaft, prop, P bracket, upholstery, and some cosmetic improvements to the salon, (plus other stuff I have forgotten, maybe epoxy). Would the work (labour / management time) be priced by each piece / item or as a project? Could it be done for say £40k, including all equipment and materials? How long would it take, could it be done in say 6 months?

I fully understand the answer will depend on very many factors, but let’s start with any examples, yards that do such work in the UK, and timeframes. I know the economics of the project will depend on the initial purchase price of the boat. At the end of the project you would still be left with a 1985 boat valued at X which may not compare to some more recently produced boats, but the type and age of boat I might like is too expensive for me. Assume the base boat would be British or Scandinavian.

Thanks!

 

[chubby]

I have often asked the same question and there are yards like Berthons at Lymington and others on the Hamble or at Port Solent but I have no idea how they would price up a total refit and whether you might as well stand outside their shed tearing up £20 pound notes!!!!!! I friend of mine bought a HR very cheaply in the Caribbean, sailed it over and refurbed it and sold for a reasonable price but did the work himself, I suspect for most boats it would not be economic and only worth it if the boat has something special and worth preserving? interested in other`s views.

 

[sailorman]

Most yards asked that question will have installed very large windows in their office. This enables then to "see you coming".
Its fraught with danger & escalating costs & over runs.

 

[pvb]

Would the work (labour / management time) be priced by each piece / item or as a project? Could it be done for say £40k, including all equipment and materials? How long would it take, could it be done in say 6 months?

The yard would obviously estimate each element separately, and probably give you a breakdown of the total cost (if only to justify the total!). From the description of the project, I think it's likely to cost quite a bit more than £40K. It could certainly be completed in 6 months.

 

[Boo2]

Say I bought a 45’ boat from 1985-1990 which needed a new engine, standing rigging, sails, plumbing, electrics including new instruments, chartplotter, autopilot, bimini, davits, sterngland, 4 new winches, deckgear, shaft, prop, P bracket, upholstery, and some cosmetic improvements to the salon, (plus other stuff I have forgotten, maybe epoxy). Would the work (labour / management time) be priced by each piece / item or as a project? Could it be done for say £40k, including all equipment and materials? How long would it take, could it be done in say 6 months?

New engine, prop shaft, p bracket and tank cost me more than £12k for a 34 footer. Took 2.5 years for the pair of "professionals" I hired to complete the job.

Standing rigging won't be less than £2k on a 45 footer, could easily be £4k. Sails depends what you buy, I'd allow £3k for a main and £2k for a genoa for my 34' boat, god knows what you will pay...

A set of instruments + chartplotter will be at least £2k + fitting (say another £1k for a pro job). Autopilot will be closer to £3k + fitting than it will to £1k ditto. Bimini & ironwork £1k5 at least, winches £2k-£3k + fitting, upholstery, depends but allow £3k if I were you.

You might get away with £40k but there is no prospect you will get it done in 6 months and you might still be fannying around 6 years later.

If you've got £40k you probably don't need to buy a boat needing all that work, and if you haven't you can't afford it so I would drop this fantasy if I were you.

As for the economics the simple facts are that whatever you put into the boat will be lost money unless you are a master craftsman and you only undertake interior work which you perform yourself to professional levels of finish. Every other penny you spend will be lost and not add to the price one little jot. If you are thinking you can strip out a tired interior and completely replace if for £40k then forget it - a pro boatbuilder would be charging 3000 hours at £40 per hour for that or £120k.

As I say, you can buy a 45 footer for £40k so there is really no need to do what you are thinking of.

Boo2

 

[Tranona]

Not a chance at £40k. Double that to start and you might cover the materials. Just a few rough figures. Engine £10k, electronics £8-10k, sails and rigging £10k (using existing mast), cabin refit £5-8k, electrics £5k, 4 winches £4k. still lots more to come!. To put it into perspective a new 46' mass produced boat is min £200k, hull and deck is approx 20% of total cost and your list covers the materials for the majority of rest of the cost. Then you are going to pay labour at yard rates rather than mass production rates. A custom built 45' is roughly double the price of a mass produced boat, and this is what you are proposing. Say you spend £80k on buying your old boat (like the Contest I was looking at the other day) you might get the whole job done for a total of £250k. So you are getting a nearly new custom boat for a bit more than a mass produced boat of similar size. But......

 

[Boo2]

Most yards asked that question will have installed very large windows in their office. This enables then to "see you coming".
Its fraught with danger & escalating costs & over runs.

+1.

The first thing the boatyard will do will be to hire another secretary whos job will be to bill you tirelessly, relentlessly, endlessly week after week, month after month, year after year £k after £k. During this time you will see the boat beached in the yard, gradually decaying with no apparent work being done to justify the invoices.

The second thing they will do is whatever it takes to make sure you cannot move her to another yard. Remove the engine, make a big hole in her topsides, tear out the interior, unstep and destroy the mast and rigging, move her to the extreme back of the yard where 2000 other boats lie between her and the water, whatever it takes to nail her to their property and the security of billing for yard fees, that's what they will do.

Your pleas for evidence that they are working on her, or for a fixed plan for the completion of the works will fall on deaf ears (or worse). Every time you get as far as sending a registered letter there will be another flurry of "effort" that will see the boat go 3 steps backward for every step forward and immediately be followed by a long and detailed description of large numbers of expensive things the boatyard have found that will need rectifying in addition to the works already commissioned.

I would not consider putting the program you are talking about in front of a professional yard, just my opinion based upon my own experiences.

Boo2

 

[PhillM]

Ok so I bought a 24 foot wooden boat in need of some attention. Over three 6 month winters I had a lot of work done, I also worked on her a lot myself, mainly doing the menial jobs. I project managed and I paid a job at a time.

Overall I spend £21k in major parts and contractor costs. I also spent a whole lot more on smaller purchases. If it was under £50 I didn't put it on the invoices paid.

Hull and cockpit repair costs around £7k
New engine £3.5 k and same again to fit to.
Standing & running rigging and a couple of new sails £3k
Plumbing, electrical, and other systems £2k
The rest on other stuff that I cannot render the specifics.

Hope that helps.

 

[prv]

The first thing the boatyard will do will be to hire another secretary whos job will be to bill you tirelessly, relentlessly, endlessly week after week, month after month, year after year £k after £k. During this time you will see the boat beached in the yard, gradually decaying with no apparent work being done to justify the invoices.

The second thing they will do is whatever it takes to make sure you cannot move her to another yard. Remove the engine, make a big hole in her topsides, tear out the interior, unstep and destroy the mast and rigging, move her to the extreme back of the yard where 2000 other boats lie between her and the water, whatever it takes to nail her to their property and the security of billing for yard fees, that's what they will do.

Your pleas for evidence that they are working on her, or for a fixed plan for the completion of the works will fall on deaf ears (or worse). Every time you get as far as sending a registered letter there will be another flurry of "effort" that will see the boat go 3 steps backward for every step forward and immediately be followed by a long and detailed description of large numbers of expensive things the boatyard have found that will need rectifying in addition to the works already commissioned.

I would not consider putting the program you are talking about in front of a professional yard, just my opinion based upon my own experiences.

That seems unfair. It will indeed cost a fortune and take ages, but there are plenty of yards who will behave professionally, make reasonable progress, and not try to hold the boat hostage.

Pete

 

[doug748]

I stood off a while because I thought my ideas were a bit dismal.

My instinctive reaction was £100,000. Not that you could get it done for that, but that it would be a more realistic target. Lots of questionable yards would be thrilled to quote but they could be up to more tricks than a cart load of monkeys. First stop would be to appoint a surveyor to oversee it, possibly 8k before you start. Post 7 has the ring of truth and pain, very good.

The Rogers yard in Lymington probably makes most of it's money on specialist refits, I have seen receipts, it is not cheap. A full refurbishment would cost more than a new boat. The reason is plain - the vast number of man hours needed for this type of project. The only short cut is to do as much of the donkey work as you can yourself.

So, as far a saving money is concerned, it is a non starter. However, if you had your eye on a specialist vehicle it would be different matter; the only way to get your hands on an immaculate, custom Swan 38 is to tip in the cash and make the effort. I would be minded to get the boat into an economic, well placed, storage yard and bring in sub contractors for each job, watching them like a hungry hawk.

Javelin of this place runs a boatyard, hopefully he will be in to give the professional view.

 

[PhillM]

I stood off a while because I thought my ideas were a bit dismal.

My instinctive reaction was £100,000. Not that you could get it done for that, but that it would be a more realistic target. Lots of questionable yards would be thrilled to quote but they could be up to more tricks than a cart load of monkeys. First stop would be to appoint a surveyor to oversee it, possibly 8k before you start. Post 7 has the ring of truth and pain, very good.

The Rogers yard in Lymington probably makes most of it's money on specialist refits, I have seen receipts, it is not cheap. A full refurbishment would cost more than a new boat. The reason is plain - the vast number of man hours needed for this type of project. The only short cut is to do as much of the donkey work as you can yourself.

So, as far a saving money is concerned, it is a non starter. However, if you had your eye on a specialist vehicle it would be different matter; the only way to get your hands on an immaculate, custom Swan 38 is to tip in the cash and make the effort. I would be minded to get the boat into an economic, well placed, storage yard and bring in sub contractors for each job, watching them like a hungry hawk.

Javelin of this place runs a boatyard, hopefully he will be in to give the professional view.

I should have said that I had Paean in Swanwick and I appointed each contractor to do their jobs. In year 2 / 3 Chrisie of this parish was the supervising surveyer.

 

[jonic]

You could do it and it can work.

But you need to find a family run old fashioned boatyard, then project manage individual good quality tradesmen and buy your equipment well.


I have just taken a mid 80's high quality yacht and stem to stern re-fitted her in less than three months with the following new kit.

Engine (Beta 36)
Stern gear
Rigging
Winches (x5 some are Andersons ;-) )
Sails
Furlex
Stackpack
Sprayhood
Rod kicker
Electric windlass
Raymarine electronics
Radar
Plotter
AIS
Autopilot
Forward looking sounder
Wind instruments
Safety kit
Small RIB and Outboard (used but like new)

All for a fair chunk less than your budget.

But the interior needed no work - It is better than some of the newer yachts I sell because it is all solid high quality wood and if maintained well, actually improves with age.

And bear in mind I am in the business (broking quality yachts) so knew the right people to employ and how to buy the kit.

I might just scrape back the money I spent when I sell her, but that's not the point.

I now have the quality and standard of yacht and kit that would have cost DOUBLE what I spent if buying new or even good second hand.

Some pics here:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z8I4j-WT9...ADE4/GR9lVSanLr4/s1600/2015-07-24+001+612.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ons_0j8k_T0/Vd4q803euXI/AAAAAAAADFI/FK2l8lhnpRM/s1600/P1060288.JPG

 

[PhillM]

U

You could do it and it can work.

But you need to find a family run old fashioned boatyard, then project manage individual good quality tradesmen and buy your equipment well.


I have just taken a mid 80's high quality yacht and stem to stern re-fitted her in less than three months with the following new kit.

Engine (Beta 36)
Stern gear
Rigging
Winches (x5 some are Andersons ;-) )
Sails
Furlex
Stackpack
Sprayhood
Rod kicker
Electric windlass
Raymarine electronics
Radar
Plotter
AIS
Autopilot
Forward looking sounder
Wind instruments
Safety kit
Small RIB and Outboard (used but like new)

All for a fair chunk less than your budget.

But the interior needed no work - It is better than some of the newer yachts I sell because it is all solid high quality wood and if maintained well, actually improves with age.

And bear in mind I am in the business (broking quality yachts) so knew the right people to employ and how to buy the kit.

I might just scrape back the money I spent when I sell her, but that's not the point.

I now have the quality and standard of yacht and kit that would have cost DOUBLE what I spent if buying new or even good second hand.

Some pics here:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z8I4j-WT9...ADE4/GR9lVSanLr4/s1600/2015-07-24+001+612.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ons_0j8k_T0/Vd4q803euXI/AAAAAAAADFI/FK2l8lhnpRM/s1600/P1060288.JPG

What a lovely job. You must be really pleased & proud.

 

[Babylon]

My boat is really coming together. In the 8yrs I've sailed her, I've fitted a new engine and stern gear, feathering prò, new plumbing, rationalised the wiring, had the topsides beautifully resprayed, the interior refinished, a new sprayhood and fab cockpit enclosure, fitted self-levelling radar and (eventually) a chartplotter and AIS VHF, dealt with a miriad of minor items, about to re-upholster, got rid of rubbish and redundant kit, retrofitted LED lighting, and fitted an electric windlass. In a couple of years' time I'll replace sails, renew the rig, add a stackpack, etc. To date, doing a huge amount of the donkey work myself, I'm in for a total of £57k, which is £28k on top of the £29k I originally paid for her. Once I've re-rigged and new sails etc, I'll be in for £64k - which is half of what I'd have to have paid Northshore for a new one now... if they were still in business!

But my time has been free (and huge fun) where I haven't needed specialist work doing, whereas a yard will be in business to make a fair living.

So go figure.

 

[john_morris_uk]

On a different scale and with a different approach to the work, twenty years ago I bought a derelict SCOD for £2,700. New engine, sails, rigging, instruments and upholstery were the major items of expenditure. The deckhouse needed a complete rebuild and some work needed doing on the hull. The mast was in bits and there was a pile of rusty rigging that needed replacing. The iron work floors all had to come out and be regalvanised.

It took me 18months and the only thing I paid a yard to do was sheath the decks in epoxy and matting. Three years later I sold the boat for £10k. I JUST about got my money back but we'd had several family holidays and lots of fun on her so I reckoned it was good value.

I cannot quantify the hours I spent working on her. I do remember that when the sun shone I was in work and when I had some time off to work on the boat it always seemed to be raining.... One of the advantages when we came to sell was that she was one of the very few SCOD's that was actually built by Camper and Nicholson. (If that doesn't mean anything, perhaps I should explain that the designer of the SCOD was a certain Charles Nicholson... )

 

[rogerball0]

Caution: How long’s a piece of string question

I’d like to know whether any UK yards focus on complete refits, and whether there are any economies to doing this, compared to upgrading as you go along?

Say I bought a 45’ boat from 1985-1990 which needed a new engine, standing rigging, sails, plumbing, electrics including new instruments, chartplotter, autopilot, bimini, davits, sterngland, 4 new winches, deckgear, shaft, prop, P bracket, upholstery, and some cosmetic improvements to the salon, (plus other stuff I have forgotten, maybe epoxy). Would the work (labour / management time) be priced by each piece / item or as a project? Could it be done for say £40k, including all equipment and materials? How long would it take, could it be done in say 6 months?

I fully understand the answer will depend on very many factors, but let’s start with any examples, yards that do such work in the UK, and timeframes. I know the economics of the project will depend on the initial purchase price of the boat. At the end of the project you would still be left with a 1985 boat valued at X which may not compare to some more recently produced boats, but the type and age of boat I might like is too expensive for me. Assume the base boat would be British or Scandinavian.

Thanks!

Urr?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely no chance, like all things restorative if it needs sanding down painting leaving to go off then sanding down (repeat ten times) your labour costs will go vertical, to give you an idea my Centaur rebuild budget back in 2008/9 when i started was £10k because hey thats more than enough?.......................................WRONG!

I flew past the £20K mark in 2011, lets flesh this out (mmm flesh!) where was i? Ah yes - costs thats right, so what did i do i hired a crane at £250 an hour i built a shed and shop, that stands me at around £4k, (completely didn't budget for that) then things like epoxy and cloth. so far we're around the £5K mark for that lot, then theres the electricity bills try £800 in one month whilst IR heating the hull as part of the gel peel and sheath process, did that for quite a few months.

What else, oh yeah new engine, i got mine from (well that doesn't matter) but i paid £3350 for it in 2008, recession prices of course but you'll pay £6 - 8k then the ancillaries so another £3k and remember this is just the materials no labours been priced in.

I've been at it not all the time as work and free time permit and it started 6 years ago, didn't touch it much in 2012 as i worked away from home but to make a long tedious story short i'm somewhere approaching the £40K now with a rig to buy and fit (£6K) as well as an interior (cushions, cooker, toilet, VHF, not to mention all the joinery that still needs making, varnishing and fitting (time lots of time) then theres spraying the hull and deck.

Oh yeah what about deck hardware, that cost me - well not as much as it should (probably about £3k in all (2008 - 10 prices) as i went to shows and nagged and got stonking discounts as i had the money there and then ready to go but a look in any boat mag brings me out in a sweat (£450 for a ST 16 winch!) i paid about £100 more than that for two ST30's and two ST16's! So there were some benefits to starting this project at the same time as the biggest global downturn the world had ever seen. Like the Goiot hatches i got - £400 bought me two T20, one T10 and one T60, today £400 would get you the T60 hatch on its own.

Labour - from my experiences so far if you need someone to make something for you be prepared to bend over and make payment, i shop all over the world now and avoid the uk alot of the time, just too dear, and thats not being a snotty prick as the internet is a great revealer of the total greed of a lot of retailers here, having said that if i go for a completely new mast i'll buy here to avoid damage but if i rebuild the old stick theres a plethora of firms in the U.S who can give me what i want.

You'd better off doing what the bloke did with his oyster and sail it to a low cost country and have it done - cant remember his name he has a blog about it.

To be honest if i knew then what i know now i would've bought the chainsaw and done the decent thing so really dont bother unless you have alot of time and money.

 

[jwilson]

Caution: How long’s a piece of string question

I’d like to know whether any UK yards focus on complete refits, and whether there are any economies to doing this, compared to upgrading as you go along?

Say I bought a 45’ boat from 1985-1990 which needed a new engine, standing rigging, sails, plumbing, electrics including new instruments, chartplotter, autopilot, bimini, davits, sterngland, 4 new winches, deckgear, shaft, prop, P bracket, upholstery, and some cosmetic improvements to the salon, (plus other stuff I have forgotten, maybe epoxy). Would the work (labour / management time) be priced by each piece / item or as a project? Could it be done for say £40k, including all equipment and materials? How long would it take, could it be done in say 6 months?

I fully understand the answer will depend on very many factors, but let’s start with any examples, yards that do such work in the UK, and timeframes. I know the economics of the project will depend on the initial purchase price of the boat. At the end of the project you would still be left with a 1985 boat valued at X which may not compare to some more recently produced boats, but the type and age of boat I might like is too expensive for me. Assume the base boat would be British or Scandinavian.

Thanks!

There is a yard that specialises in very high quality refits - Pendennis, but quite a few of their customers are billionaires for whom £40K is a short trip in their jet somewhere for dinner.

You could easily spend that £40K if you did most of the work yourself. Give it to a boatyard and that £40K would disappear fast long long before the job was done. I know of one quality 35 ft yacht that had £80K spent on it on top of the original price, and that was with the owner doing much of the labour himself. It was a very very thorough refit, and the 1960s era boat came out looking much like it was in the Earls Court Boat Show when new.

Some bits are easy to cost: rig, sails etc. Get into refinishing joinery, rewiring and replumbing and the materials may be comparatively cheap but professional labour is expensive if you want a good job.

As brokers ( http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/ ) we always say that the cheapest older boat in the long run is often the one where someone else has already put in the time effort and money in replacing and fixing things. Pay a bit more upfront and get a "sorted" boat.

 

[Tam Lin]

,

Urr?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely no chance, like all things restorative if it needs sanding down painting leaving to go off then sanding down (repeat ten times) your labour costs will go vertical, to give you an idea my Centaur rebuild budget back in 2008/9 when i started was £10k because hey thats more than enough?.......................................WRONG!

I flew past the £20K mark in 2011, lets flesh this out (mmm flesh!) where was i? Ah yes - costs thats right, so what did i do i hired a crane at £250 an hour i built a shed and shop, that stands me at around £4k, (completely didn't budget for that) then things like epoxy and cloth. so far we're around the £5K mark for that lot, then theres the electricity bills try £800 in one month whilst IR heating the hull as part of the gel peel and sheath process, did that for quite a few months.

What else, oh yeah new engine, i got mine from (well that doesn't matter) but i paid £3350 for it in 2008, recession prices of course but you'll pay £6 - 8k then the ancillaries so another £3k and remember this is just the materials no labours been priced in.

I've been at it not all the time as work and free time permit and it started 6 years ago, didn't touch it much in 2012 as i worked away from home but to make a long tedious story short i'm somewhere approaching the £40K now with a rig to buy and fit (£6K) as well as an interior (cushions, cooker, toilet, VHF, not to mention all the joinery that still needs making, varnishing and fitting (time lots of time) then theres spraying the hull and deck.

Oh yeah what about deck hardware, that cost me - well not as much as it should (probably about £3k in all (2008 - 10 prices) as i went to shows and nagged and got stonking discounts as i had the money there and then ready to go but a look in any boat mag brings me out in a sweat (£450 for a ST 16 winch!) i paid about £100 more than that for two ST30's and two ST16's! So there were some benefits to starting this project at the same time as the biggest global downturn the world had ever seen. Like the Goiot hatches i got - £400 bought me two T20, one T10 and one T60, £400 would get you the T60 hatch on its own.

Labour - from my experiences so far if you need someone to make something for you be prepared to bend over and make payment, i shop all over the world now and avoid the uk alot of the time, just too dear, and thats not being a snotty prick as the internet is a great revealer of the total greed of a lot of retailers here, having said that if i go for a completely new mast i'll buy here to avoid damage but if i rebuild the old stick theres a plethora of firms in the U.S who can give me what i want.

You'd better off doing what the bloke did with his oyster and sail it to a low cost country and have it done - cant remember his name he has a blog about it.

To be honest if i knew then what i know now i would've bought the chainsaw and done the decent thing so really dont bother unless you have alot of time and money.

Roger, you have cheered me up no end. I feel much better about my boat now!

 

[Koeketiene]

Caution: How long’s a piece of string question

I’d like to know whether any UK yards focus on complete refits, and whether there are any economies to doing this, compared to upgrading as you go along?

Say I bought a 45’ boat from 1985-1990 which needed a new engine, standing rigging, sails, plumbing, electrics including new instruments, chartplotter, autopilot, bimini, davits, sterngland, 4 new winches, deckgear, shaft, prop, P bracket, upholstery, and some cosmetic improvements to the salon, (plus other stuff I have forgotten, maybe epoxy). Would the work (labour / management time) be priced by each piece / item or as a project? Could it be done for say £40k, including all equipment and materials? How long would it take, could it be done in say 6 months?

We bought a 44' boat -1984 vintage - in 2005.
We had most of the stuff done on your list. Didn't have anything done in the saloon (upholstery or anything cosmetic).
Did replace engine, electrics, electronics, heating, standing rigging, sails, hull coppercoated and awlgripped, new windlass, and replaced the teak decks.
We lacked the funds to have everything done in one go, so had jobs done as funds became available. It has taken us 8 years.

When all is said and done, we will have spent about as much on the refit as we paid for the boat.
Biggest single ticket item was the deck.

 

[nauticalnomad]

And the worst part is youre paying boat yard prices who pay minimum wage for their employees who's attitude is on par with the wage..
Ive just refit my boat completely..
New engine/ New Mast, rigging/ New Sails/ New Electrics/ New winches/ Hull was taken back to bare and surveyed, repaired and repainted..
The yard took ages to do anything and lied and overcharged.. The money ive spent I could of bought a new boat but obviously not as good a quality or hullshape performance etc.
I am happy with it, I have done most of it myself where possible and I wont get the money back. But isn't every boat an ongoing project?
Ive spent 150 thousand gbp to get what I have today including what I paid for the boat.