Complete refit costs

We took our boat up to Conwy, North Wales and had work done on our Oyster 406 by TLC. The same place was used by AuditData on here with his own 406 although he spent considerably more than we did.......our 'refit' included full osmosis treatment, completely new teak deck, new windlass fitted, a gantry, solar panels, wind gen, new stereo system, tv, and some interior woodwork (bookshelves) bought lots of other stuff too including a large manson supreme anchor to go with our shiny new windlass. The cost of that little lot and around 7 months in the boatyard was in the area of 40k. We didn't need new rigging but of course the mast had to be re-fitted so there were rigging costs too. TLC have a lot of contractors and know quite a few 'where to get it cheaper' places. They do need to be time-managed but I'd still recommend them. Tom Cunliffe also had his deck re-teaked there.
 
I am currently renovating a Westerly Fulmar and orginally set the budget at £10,000 to £12,000. However I expect it to be closer to £20,000. That does not include a new engine as one had recently been fitted. There are photos at http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/ConcertoFulmar32/library/?sort=3&page=5 to see the changes and a thread on the Westerly Owners Forum http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/woaforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2748.

The renovation is for my benefit as I am expecting to keep her for over 10 years. I am doing almost all the labour myself, so this is saving a fortune. I started last year and worked from the rubbing strake down. This included removing all antifouling, treating the keel and epoxying the hull, new water lubricated stern gland, folding propeller, compounding the topsides, sanding the painted transom back to gel coat, retrimming the boat from red to blue including style line, sprayhood and pack-a-main, fitted a chart plotter, and extra self tailing genoa winches.

Since then I have fitted an Ebersparcher, stripped all varnish from external woodwork, removed all the deck paint and repainted, removed the old Treadmaster from the cockpit ready for solid teak panels, sanded and compounded all deck gel coat, moved some winches, fitted a stainless steel band to the rubbing strake, new stanchions with side gates and new bases in stainless steel, and new bunk cushions. In the near future I shall be fitting a new auto pilot and reinforcing the aft keel rib.

Luckily the majority of the foam backed vinyl headlining has been replaced, so just the forward cabin needs to be done. Then a new cooker and gas system, new interior lights, new engine sound proofing, refurbish all interior woodwork, danbolin all lockers, plus a few other bits and pieces like make a new instrument consul. New sails to a high specification are to also purchased.

My philosophy is I could afford a new 32ft yacht, but I do not like the hull shape or open plan interior. So I decided to buy an old boat and renovate. It does mean a lot of work, but I shall have a boat in tip top like new condition at about one third of the cost.
 
nauticalnomad said:
The money ive spent I could of bought a new boat but obviously not as good a quality or hullshape performance etc.
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Concerto said:
My philosophy is I could afford a new 32ft yacht, but I do not like the hull shape or open plan interior.
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Which is pretty much the only reason to refit an old(er) boat.

If you stick to daysailing in coastal waters and marinahopping any AWB will be more than adequate and is the most sensible way forward.
If, however, you are a bit more demanding and less inclined to settle for a compromise, it is worthwhile to refit.

A word of warning: it's only worthwhile if you intend to keep the boat for a long time (10-20 years) as should you plan to sell in the short term you will be in for a nasty surprise. The financial hit you will take is substantial. You'll never, ever get back what you put in.
 
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OR4751 said:
Which is pretty much the only reason to refit an old(er) boat.

If you stick to daysailing in coastal waters and marinahopping any AWB will be more than adequate and is the most sensible way forward.
If you are a bit more demanding, and less inclined to settle for a compromise, it is worthwhile to refit.

A word of warning - it's only worthwhile if you intend to keep the boat for a long time (10-20 years) as should you plan to sell in the short term be prepared for a nasty surprise. The financial hit you will take is substantial.
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Wise words
 
Thanks all very much for some interesting insights and your experiences. My intention in posting was to better assess the strategic choices open to us. We're a family of 4 planning to sail west for a couple of years on a modest income, most likely sticking to the tropics, with no fixed plans, aiming to leave in 2 years time. We would own the boat for probably 3-5 years and sell after that. I would like the resale price to be within say 20% of the buy (or buy & fix) price.

It's clear to me, reading your comments, both successes and frustrations, that I lack the experience and skill set (and willpower) to manage a refit myself, nor do I have the cash to park it with a yard.
 
O
rogerball0 said:
Urr?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely no chance, like all things restorative if it needs sanding down painting leaving to go off then sanding down (repeat ten times) your labour costs will go vertical, to give you an idea my Centaur rebuild budget back in 2008/9 when i started was £10k because hey thats more than enough?.......................................WRONG!

I flew past the £20K mark in 2011, lets flesh this out (mmm flesh!) where was i? Ah yes - costs thats right, so what did i do i hired a crane at £250 an hour i built a shed and shop, that stands me at around £4k, (completely didn't budget for that) then things like epoxy and cloth. so far we're around the £5K mark for that lot, then theres the electricity bills try £800 in one month whilst IR heating the hull as part of the gel peel and sheath process, did that for quite a few months.

What else, oh yeah new engine, i got mine from (well that doesn't matter) but i paid £3350 for it in 2008, recession prices of course but you'll pay £6 - 8k then the ancillaries so another £3k and remember this is just the materials no labours been priced in.

I've been at it not all the time as work and free time permit and it started 6 years ago, didn't touch it much in 2012 as i worked away from home but to make a long tedious story short i'm somewhere approaching the £40K now with a rig to buy and fit (£6K) as well as an interior (cushions, cooker, toilet, VHF, not to mention all the joinery that still needs making, varnishing and fitting (time lots of time) then theres spraying the hull and deck.

Oh yeah what about deck hardware, that cost me - well not as much as it should (probably about £3k in all (2008 - 10 prices) as i went to shows and nagged and got stonking discounts as i had the money there and then ready to go but a look in any boat mag brings me out in a sweat (£450 for a ST 16 winch!) i paid about £100 more than that for two ST30's and two ST16's! So there were some benefits to starting this project at the same time as the biggest global downturn the world had ever seen. Like the Goiot hatches i got - £400 bought me two T20, one T10 and one T60, today £400 would get you the T60 hatch on its own.

Labour - from my experiences so far if you need someone to make something for you be prepared to bend over and make payment, i shop all over the world now and avoid the uk alot of the time, just too dear, and thats not being a snotty prick as the internet is a great revealer of the total greed of a lot of retailers here, having said that if i go for a completely new mast i'll buy here to avoid damage but if i rebuild the old stick theres a plethora of firms in the U.S who can give me what i want.

You'd better off doing what the bloke did with his oyster and sail it to a low cost country and have it done - cant remember his name he has a blog about it.

To be honest if i knew then what i know now i would've bought the chainsaw and done the decent thing so really dont bother unless you have alot of time and money.
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I spoke with a Breton, owner of a 14m boat which he had taken to Tunisia. He said that the cost of work there was a fraction of what he would pay in France. Iirc, he said that a haul-out for antifouling cost him 100€.

He said that the local marina included a lot of liveaboards and that it was easy to get low cost flights back to France.
 
siwhi said:
Thanks all very much for some interesting insights and your experiences. My intention in posting was to better assess the strategic choices open to us. We're a family of 4 planning to sail west for a couple of years on a modest income, most likely sticking to the tropics, with no fixed plans, aiming to leave in 2 years time. We would own the boat for probably 3-5 years and sell after that. I would like the resale price to be within say 20% of the buy (or buy & fix) price.

It's clear to me, reading your comments, both successes and frustrations, that I lack the experience and skill set (and willpower) to manage a refit myself, nor do I have the cash to park it with a yard.
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Good luck with your trip.

We left as a couple for a year or two and came back 8 years later as a family of four!

The latter years are here http://theyachtseraphim.blogspot.co.uk/ and the early years are here http://www.theyachtmoonshine.com/

SWMBO is a yachting journalist and also wrote a book you may enjoy http://www.sailawaybook.com/

I think you are right to come to your conclusion about the refit route.

Realistically it was my time livingaboard and then years in the brokerage world that gave me the knowledge to do it without a yard overseeing it.

Don't get too hung up on re-sale. I "lost" about 30% but would have paid £MILLIONS for our trip. It's man's last great freedom and utterly priceless.

If you need help get in touch by my sig below.

I am very realistic with my clients and one of the best pieces of advice I can give is "remember cruising is fixing boats in exotic places".

But it is still amazing.

Best of luck with it :encouragement:
 
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siwhi said:
Say I bought a 45’ boat from 1985-1990 which needed a new engine, standing rigging, sails, plumbing, electrics including new instruments, chartplotter, autopilot, bimini, davits, sterngland, 4 new winches, deckgear, shaft, prop, P bracket, upholstery, and some cosmetic improvements to the salon, (plus other stuff I have forgotten, maybe epoxy). Would the work (labour / management time) be priced by each piece / item or as a project? Could it be done for say £40k, including all equipment and materials? How long would it take, could it be done in say 6 months?
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Basically you want a new boat built on your old hull. Compared to a new boat you therefore save the costs of a new hull but make the fitting out much harder, not least because of all the existing stuff that needs to be removed first.

Sticking a finger in the air, I'll therefore guess "the same as a new one, plus or minus twenty per cent".
 
Having read all the above it woud seem that buying a boat already prepared for living aboard for extended periods, made of GRP most likely, or perhaps an Ovni, would be the better option.

Buy in budget with money left for ongoing repairs, and of course, to bank roll the extended 2 year cruise.

45ft or so might be considered normal fair for live aboard, but lots of people are managing well on smaller boats.

Smaller boats are easier to manage short handed, cheaper to run, but may be a compromise on creature comforts.

Of course there are many variables and size is only one, buy a boat configured for your intended destinations. A year cruise from UK, to Gibralter, around the med and back through the French canals would be different to a solo Antarctic expedition, or an artic circle circumnavigation.

AWBs can and do do circumnavigation and crossing Atlantic/Pacific, visiting remote places, as well as med and carribean.

An AWB ready for live aboard, with solar panels, or other charging system installed could be had for a reasonable amount. There are many boats to choose from, so choose one that is well maintained, then you'll spend your money and time sailing it more. The risk of a project is it'll sap your time, energy, and finances. Then you'll neither sail nor reach the dream destinations
 
PabloPicasso said:
45ft or so might be considered normal fair for live aboard, but lots of people are managing well on smaller boats.
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There is IMHO a huge difference between 'managing' and 'enjoying'.
I haven't yet lived aboard for an extended time, but I have crewed on a couple of Atlantic deliveries (3 crew total).
A boat can turn claustrophobic pretty quickly.

PabloPicasso said:
Smaller boats are easier to manage short handed, cheaper to run, but may be a compromise on creature comforts.
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I beg to differ. Current boat is 44' and if anything she is a lot easier to handle than the previous 38' AWB we sailed.
Motion is steadier for one.
Most of the time it's just the wife and me aboard - which means I'm sailing singlehanded +1.
The wife's chores are limited to:
- helming the boat so I can pick up our mooring
- taking the lines ashore if we park in a marina
- putting the kettle on
 
OR4751 said:
I beg to differ. Current boat is 44' and if anything she is a lot easier to handle than the previous 38' AWB we sailed.
Motion is steadier for one.
Most of the time it's just the wife and me aboard - which means I'm sailing singlehanded +1.
The wife's chores are limited to:
- helming the boat so I can pick up our mooring
- taking the lines ashore if we park in a marina
- putting the kettle on
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Ha ha. I recognise the crew responsibilities! Spot on.
 
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