Comparing sailmakers

[oldbilbo]

Thanks, guys, for all those 'tangential' opinions. Most of 'em about as much use to me as a three-speed walking stick.

I was hoping to harvest some 'value for money' and 'quality of service' experience. With a couple of honourable exceptions, the above takes me no closer to an informed outlook than sticking a pin, blindfolded, into a pack of bizcards. I'm back to choosing a sailmaker on the basis of whether I like his aftershave...

However, I have discarded one candidate - my nearest, in Bristol - on the basis it took over a month and 4 visits to agree what needed doing ( I knew that before we started ) but not to bother coming up with a price.

No, I didn't take the Mercedes or wear the Saville Row suit, so I guess the fellow was just being true to his UK sailmaker apprenticeship - 'do the least possible, do it as late as possible, and whatever you agree to - don't bother'.

And if you think this is ascerbic, just consider how I felt when the bugger asked me to come back for the fifth time....!

 

[Twister_Ken]

>on price quoted?

There are certainly difference in price for sail making, however I'd start with the sail itself. If you are buying Dacron sails there are various qualities of Dacron according to the amount of glue and fibre used. The more fibre used the more expensive the sail is but it will last much longer before stretching. Also features cost money such as triple stitching and the mainsail leech line led to the mast. The best quality cloth by far is made by Hood.

To check the quality put a bright light beneath each sample of cloth and use a magnifying glass. The difference in fibre/quality will be obvious. Once you have chosen the cloth you want and what if any features you want get as many quotes as possible. Then to get the best price play them off against each other. Hood cloth is not sold to sailmakers, Hood make the sails themselves but will negotiate price.

Hood no longer make sails in the UK. And other cloth makers like Bainbridge and North would take serious exception to your "Hood Best" claim.

 

[Simondjuk]

As I said, if you want to experience good communication from a sail maker, speak to Kemp.

 

[Twister_Ken]

The forum also has its own sailmaker. Wilkinson Sails. Got to be worth an ask.

01795 521503

 

[DaiB]

No aftershave worries!!!!!

+1 for Cindy

The forum also has its own sailmaker. Wilkinson Sails. Got to be worth an ask.

01795 521503

 

[Robin]

Hood no longer make sails in the UK. And other cloth makers like Bainbridge and North would take serious exception to your "Hood Best" claim.

Not to forget Dimension Polyant's Hydranet high tech Dyneema reinforced Dacron.

Hood are no better and no worse than others and there a few boats around here with Hood sails that are crap which were supplied as original equipment.

Otherwise there has been enough discussion and recommendation on here even in recent weeks on this subject for a search to pick up the sailmakers we prefer and which actually do what is wanted, when it is wanted and how it is wanted.

The key IMO is to decide what you personally want from sails and how much if anything you are prepared to pay for it to be better than just the cheapest they can supply. Then armed with your own idea of what you want, talk in depth to the sailmakers and ask their opinions, because THEY are the experts that can best guide you. Personally I always preferred to pay more for a better setting better material and cut, without going to out and out loony race stuff for those with unlimited budgets. I am a big fan of Dimension Polyant Hydranet material and had excellent sails made from it by Crusader from whom I bought very many sails over many years. Other makers can use Hydranet as it isn't exclusive but Crusader have worked with it for many years, they are also my local loft of choice, very responsive and very knowledgeable and very experienced sailors themselves in all types of boats.

 

[oldbilbo]

It wasn't intended to suggest that 'lowest price' would be a determinant, but I was curious to identify whether one firm was considered Most Expensive or Cheapest, and thought to poll peeps' opinions. I guess part of the unclarity was in my first question.

The second q. has more significance for me, and was about peeps' initial satisfaction with their sails, and their 'makers.

As for what one wants from sails, I think that's well sorted now, thanks.

 

[KellysEye]

>And other cloth makers like Bainbridge and North would take serious exception to your "Hood Best" claim.

As far as I know Hood are the only sailmakers who weave their own cloth. Bainbridge and North usually buy their cloth from the US, all sailmakers other than Hood use the same range of cloths of varying quality, with cloth from China being the cheapest.

If you don't believe me get cloth samples from those three and do the test I mentioned. Then please come back with the results.

 

[Twister_Ken]

>And other cloth makers like Bainbridge and North would take serious exception to your "Hood Best" claim.

As far as I know Hood are the only sailmakers who weave their own cloth. Bainbridge and North usually buy their cloth from the US, all sailmakers other than Hood use the same range of cloths of varying quality, with cloth from China being the cheapest.

If you don't believe me get cloth samples from those three and do the test I mentioned. Then please come back with the results.

Bainbridge is a cloth manufacturer, not a sail maker. North makes its own cloth.

 

[Robin]

Bainbridge is a cloth manufacturer, not a sail maker. North makes its own cloth.

And the other one that I mentioned, Dimension Polyant, is a German cloth maker.

All in all not a very accurate comment from KellysEye.

 

[Tranona]

All in all not a very accurate comment from KellysEye.

Yes he has made it before and usually been corrected. Maybe he is stuck in a time warp!

 

[lustyd]

It wasn't intended to suggest that 'lowest price' would be a determinant, but I was curious to identify whether one firm was considered Most Expensive or Cheapest, and thought to poll peeps' opinions. I guess part of the unclarity was in my first question.

The second q. has more significance for me, and was about peeps' initial satisfaction with their sails, and their 'makers.

As for what one wants from sails, I think that's well sorted now, thanks.

I think Crusader are universally considered one of the cheapest but also have an excellent reputation for "normal" sails.

 

[Plevier]

I think Crusader are universally considered one of the cheapest but also have an excellent reputation for "normal" sails.

When I started looking last year, Crusader were initially the cheapest by quite a bit. By the time I had changed to better cloth and the other features I wanted, Crusader and Kemps and Jeckells were all within about £50 in £2800!
North and Hyde were substantially more for equivalent spec.
You have to be careful to compare spec as well as price.

 

[Twister_Ken]

When I started looking last year, Crusader were initially the cheapest by quite a bit. By the time I had changed to better cloth and the other features I wanted, Crusader and Kemps and Jeckells were all within about £50 in £2800!
North and Hyde were substantially more for equivalent spec.
You have to be careful to compare spec as well as price.

At the risk of teaching anyone to suck eggs, price, cloth and spec are some considerations, but cut or shape should be top of the list. A well made, well priced sail is useless if the shape isn't right. That, in my view, is where the big name sailmakers score extra points. Because the big players build so many sails, and get feedback both from owners and their own staff who sail on some of the hottest boats, they have a great feedback loop, so that your average punter (me, for eg), gets a sail that is well specced and built AND has a race winner's shape.

 

[cawarra]

>And other cloth makers like Bainbridge and North would take serious exception to your "Hood Best" claim.

As far as I know Hood are the only sailmakers who weave their own cloth. Bainbridge and North usually buy their cloth from the US, all sailmakers other than Hood use the same range of cloths of varying quality, with cloth from China being the cheapest.

If you don't believe me get cloth samples from those three and do the test I mentioned. Then please come back with the results.

You are correct in saying that North make sailcloth in the US.
It is also correct that Bainbridge do not make sails but do make the cloth. All thier Dacron sail cloth is woven and finshed in Europe, not the US or the far east.
However your testing method is rather crude and certainly should not be relied upon for looking at how good a cloth is.... (I think we have had this conversation on this forum before) Just because a cloth has "lots of fibres and not much glue" certainly does not mean that the material is any good. By simply shining a light through the cloth will not tell you what type of fibres are being used, the tenasity of the yarn, the denier etc etc etc. The best way is to ask your sailmaker for the testing graphs for specific weights. Any good cloth manufacturer will be willing to pass this info on.....however ensure its not just a "general" testing graph and they have picked the best of the best...


And as another forumite mentions, Hood are no longer producing sail cloth.

 

[lustyd]

so that your average punter (me, for eg), gets a sail that is well specced and built AND has a race winner's shape.

I doubt a racing shape would be much good on a cruiser. I certainly don't want a sail where I need to put massive strain on it to get a good shape. I never intend to go out in stronger winds on purpose. I'd rather be a little slower but have something designed to last and designed for appropriate winds. The requirements are totally different for racing and cruising in almost every way. Of course that doesn't mean a loft making race sails won't make good cruising sails, but I also don't think that the fact they make them would be a bonus either.

 

[Plevier]

At the risk of teaching anyone to suck eggs, price, cloth and spec are some considerations, but cut or shape should be top of the list. A well made, well priced sail is useless if the shape isn't right. That, in my view, is where the big name sailmakers score extra points. Because the big players build so many sails, and get feedback both from owners and their own staff who sail on some of the hottest boats, they have a great feedback loop, so that your average punter (me, for eg), gets a sail that is well specced and built AND has a race winner's shape.

I think it's shades of grey and depends on the boat and the owner.
I believe any of the three sailmakers I mentioned could design and cut sails good enough for my skill level and a 31ft lift keel AWB. They all get good references on this forum. I'm going for a really good cloth (Marblehead) in the hope that the sails will stay pretty good for a longer time.
A sail in a cheaper fabric that was a bit better cut to start with might well not be after a season. In a similar way, two sailmakers and a sailcloth producer who I rang to check all agreed that the cloth that would give marginally the best performance when new (a specialist high aspect one) would not be as good for my needs as a more general purpose one because the HA would lose more shape in its first year and thereafter not be as good as the GP one!
I can't justify the cost of a top maker AND top fabric (and certainly not laminate).
If you are a serious racer with a serious racing boat then the answers have to be different.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I'm not implying that racing sails make good cruising sails, but that the lessons learned from building front-of-fleet racing sails will have a beneficial effect on the cut and shape of that loft's cruising sails, even without high tech laminates, etc.

I know it's trite to compare boaty things with the motor industry, but I'll go ahead anyway. Think of the amount of R&D spend that car manufacturers put into improving the performance of 'cruising' cars. Now ask which sail lofts put an equivalent amount of effort into R&D. I suspect the answer is only those involved in racing. So those lofts are learning more about building fast sails in one season than 'cruising' lofts will learn in a decade. And we all want fast cruising sails, don't we - as long as it's not at the expense of longevity.

 

[sjdtuk]

I have very good experience with Sanders Sails in Lymington. They measure up on the boat and I believe manufactured locally.

I went for top end dacron.