Comparing sailmakers

[oldbilbo]

Like many others, I'm musing on this. Perhaps I could tap into the experiences of forumeers who have bought one or more sails in the past 3 years, or had maintenance work done....?

I've taken a list of UK sailmakers from a web-search copied below. There are two questions I'd ask:

1. If you had a quotation from 3 or 4 of these for, say, a conventional mainsail or a genoa, how did you rank them - A.B.C.D. - on price quoted?

2. If you would next highlight ( make bold ) the company you went with, then mention whether you got what you'd agreed, right first time, Y/N, without significant further 'discussion' with them....?

Hopefully, that should give an impression I can use. Please and thanks...



List:

Arun
Bank
Crusader
Dolphin
Doyle
Elvstrom
Hood
Lawrence
Jeckells
Mitchell
Penrose
Quay
Saturn
Solo
Ratsey
Ultimate
Westaway
Rockall

 

[White Horse]

You managed to miss one of the BIGGEST

AND why is everything always about price

Its all everyone talks about now. How cheap can I buy it, and then they moan like mad when it does not last very long. There are a number on here who are not very happy with what they got.

Me .. Well I paid extra and got the service and the sails that I wanted and they fit perfectly because they came out and measured the boat properly.

I have no complaints whatsoever ..

 

[Boathook]

You managed to miss one of the BIGGEST

AND why is everything always about price

Its all everyone talks about now. How cheap can I buy it, and then they moan like mad when it does not last very long. There are a number on here who are not very happy with what they got.

Me .. Well I paid extra and got the service and the sails that I wanted and they fit perfectly because they came out and measured the boat properly.

I have no complaints whatsoever ..

I will say the same about Quay Sails ....

 

[Seagreen]

Chips in with "Sails and Canvas" at Exeter.

 

[Habebty]

I put up a similar post last summer and got answers that that effectively meant that every sailmaker was both brilliant and rubbish.


I have just ordered a new main and genoa with Doyles (not on your list) in Southampton because;

1. They made the originals which have been brilliant - The main is actually still ok but hey why not have a spare.

1a. They had the critical measurements from when the boat was built (I've had it from new)and understood the subtle rig differences in the progressive hull numbers.

2. They were happy to spend some time laying out my old sails to see what improvements they could make in the new suit.

3. They spent plenty of time talking about what other owners were getting and showed me those sails.

4. They weren't the cheapest but gave lots of useful advice.

I went for a thick rope luff rather than my previous foam padded luff as the foam does tend to stay squashed after 3-4 years.

This gave me some piece of mind rather than sending a sailmaker your dimensions and hoping for the best. I shall report back on the fit and cut of my new sails.

My tip is find a sailmaker who is willing to spend some time discussing what is best for you while he is looking at your old sails and you tell him what sort of sailing you do and what you want from the sails.

Sailcloth weight was a big question as I didn't know what weight the existing sails were.
Turns out they were 7.5oz Dacron which is admittely a bit pants in light airs but better in heavy weather. So I went for the same again as my (29-0') boat flies in F6-7 which is more important to me than light air performance.

I have a cruising chute (and a folding prop!)for light airs.

 

[Tranona]

Like many others, I'm musing on this. Perhaps I could tap into the experiences of forumeers who have bought one or more sails in the past 3 years, or had maintenance work done....?

I've taken a list of UK sailmakers from a web-search copied below. There are two questions I'd ask:

1. If you had a quotation from 3 or 4 of these for, say, a conventional mainsail or a genoa, how did you rank them - A.B.C.D. - on price quoted?

2. If you would next highlight ( make bold ) the company you went with, then mention whether you got what you'd agreed, right first time, Y/N, without significant further 'discussion' with them....?

Hopefully, that should give an impression I can use. Please and thanks...



List:

Arun
Bank
Crusader
Dolphin
Doyle
Elvstrom
Hood
Lawrence
Jeckells
Mitchell
Penrose
Quay
Saturn
Solo
Ratsey
Ultimate
Westaway
Rockall

That is a very incomplete list.

Doubt you will get anything meaningful out of such a question. The fact that there are so many in the business, and many of them have been there for the 40 years I have been sailing, some in the same ownership, suggests they they have happy customers.

Sails are not a commodity product. As Haberty says if you want sails specific to you then you need to discuss your requirements with a sailmaker who understands your kind of boat and style of sailing. Most of the well established firms will produce a good quality sail to suit your specification.

 

[oldbilbo]

That is a very incomplete list.

I s'pose it is - but it isn't 'subjective'. I found it here and didn't introduce 'corrections. Oh, and the list certainly does include Doyle.... just for 'Habebty'.

And I wonder who are meant by 'one of the the BIGGEST'....

Doubt you will get anything meaningful out of such a question.

I thought I would try, rather than 'stick a pin'. C'mon, guys. Name the outfit you plumped for, and whether they got your requests right first time ( unlike this question )

Did peeps go primarily on price, or something else? If so, what?

 

[Twister_Ken]

The biggest is - I think - North. They got big by being good. They're on top of the theory and the practise. They're on race winning boats, but they make good cruising sails too.

 

[Simondjuk]

I bought a suit of sails from Kemp last year. They were excellent at communicating right from our initial email. They sent their guy to measure up, who also took plenty of time to discuss our exact needs and expectations with us during his visit. They added a couple of extras we decided we wanted as a result of this discussion and didn't increase their quote. The sails were finished a week early and delivered within 24 hours of me paying for them. They are well made and fit and set perfectly. They are also actually made by Kemp in the UK, not farmed out to some far eastern roft.

Granted, we could have paid a little less with some smaller lofts, but then we'd probably have spent the difference making dozens of telephone calls chasing up the sails when they still hadn't been finished two months later than due.

By comparison, neither North or Quantum even bothered to respond to our initial emails.

 

[splashman237]

Like many others, I'm musing on this. Perhaps I could tap into the experiences of forumeers who have bought one or more sails in the past 3 years, or had maintenance work done....?

I've taken a list of UK sailmakers from a web-search copied below. There are two questions I'd ask:

1. If you had a quotation from 3 or 4 of these for, say, a conventional mainsail or a genoa, how did you rank them - A.B.C.D. - on price quoted?

2. If you would next highlight ( make bold ) the company you went with, then mention whether you got what you'd agreed, right first time, Y/N, without significant further 'discussion' with them....?

Hopefully, that should give an impression I can use. Please and thanks...



List:

Arun
Bank
Crusader
Dolphin
Doyle
Elvstrom
Hood
Lawrence
Jeckells
Mitchell
Penrose
Quay
Saturn
Solo
Ratsey
Ultimate
Westaway
Rockall

I bought a good set of sails from Steve Goacher - great knowledge of shape, and fabrics - which I certainly needed guidance with modern materials. Sail shape great and durable even though they are more racing sails than cruising , good service - not cheapest - but you get what you pay for - my advice - ring email/visit a good number of them and based on how enthusiastic they sound pick the top 3-4 and get into a deeper discussion. They are all keen for business but bewhere of getting bamboozled by the techno babble, they all have their spin on their product - so decide what type of sail and sailing you want to do, are you looking for durabilty, or fast racing shape, how many reefs, cunnigham eyes, reef points, sail numbers, sail bags battens etc before you talk, and then stick to your requirments . Good luck

 

[Habebty]

I s'pose it is - but it isn't 'subjective'. I found it here and didn't introduce 'corrections. Oh, and the list certainly does include Doyle.... just for 'Habebty'.

Oops! Sorry

 

[Twister_Ken]

They are all keen for business but bewhere of getting bamboozled by the techno babble, they all have their spin on their product

Echo that. I talked to four lofts when choosing sails for Snowbird. Crusader, Quantum, North, Saunders. Got four different stories about what cut and cloth would be best. When probing deeper, each found it difficult to define just why it had recommended what it did; got the feeling it was just "what we normally do". Eventually plumped for North because it offered several alternatives plus good support. One of its choices aligned with what I thought I needed; hi-tech Dacron. Not disappointed.

 

[Tranona]

I thought I would try, rather than 'stick a pin'. C'mon, guys. Name the outfit you plumped for, and whether they got your requests right first time ( unlike this question )

Did peeps go primarily on price, or something else? If so, what?

Suppose we are lucky where I live in Poole as we have 2 of the major volume sailmakers locally plus another who also has a good reputation. Only one is on your list. I happen to use Kemp because when I refitted my boat many years ago Rob gave me a lot of advice on redesigning the sailplan following mods to the standard boat design - and of course made the full suit of sails, still in use nearly 20 years later. Could just as easily gone to Crusader and been just as happy.

It is just not possible to say that any one is better than another. There are so many different cloths, cuts and specifications, never mind different styles of sailing that no one company could dominate the market. Service is often better if the supplier is local to your boat, and the relatively low cost of entry into the market means that relatively small businesses can be viable. Everywhere where there is a large number of boats there is a sailmaker of some sort. Some obviously try to service a much wider market and others specialise in particular styles.

Some buyers buy solely on price, others are very high maintenance because they are prepared to spend a lot of money on trying to get the maximum performance out of their sails. Perhaps the problem is that there is too much choice, as Ken says, and most people only buy new sails a few times so have difficulties in choosing or are afraid of making a mistake.

So, if you want to do anything other than buy the cheapest, you need to do some research as to what is available, assess clearly what you want, derive a short list and make your choice. No different from any other consumer decision where the product is complex and there is a lot of choice.

 

[lustyd]

Go to google and perform the following searches then read some of the posts you find. It'll be easy to knock some of them off the list and others will rise to the top of the list.

Arun site:ybw.com
Bank site:ybw.com
Crusader site:ybw.com
Dolphin site:ybw.com
Doyle site:ybw.com
Elvstrom site:ybw.com
Hood site:ybw.com
Lawrence site:ybw.com
Jeckells site:ybw.com
Mitchell site:ybw.com
Penrose site:ybw.com
Quay site:ybw.com
Saturn site:ybw.com
Solo site:ybw.com
Ratsey site:ybw.com
Ultimate site:ybw.com
Westaway site:ybw.com
Rockall site:ybw.com

 

[flaming]

and of course made the full suit of sails, still in use nearly 20 years later.

Without wanting to in any way seem confrontational - is experience of product / service 20 years ago really relavent to today?

It is just not possible to say that any one is better than another. There are so many different cloths, cuts and specifications, never mind different styles of sailing that no one company could dominate the market.

Within racing circles it is probably fair to say that one company does dominate the UK market. To the extent that it is noteworthy when a boat is not using them.

 

[Tranona]

Without wanting to in any way seem confrontational - is experience of product / service 20 years ago really relavent to today?

Just taken my (Greek made) Bavaria sails to Rob for some mods he suggested. In the intervening years he has grown up a bit and built a very successful business (including taking over the Hood franchise) so guess he is doing something right. Think many others on here will have the same view. Already discussing the replacements for the 20 year old ones, which I expect will be different from the current as both he and I have learned a bit since then.

You second point only confirms what I was trying to say - the company you mention would I suggest not be the place for me to go for the new sails for my old Eventide.

 

[flaming]

Just taken my (Greek made) Bavaria sails to Rob for some mods he suggested. In the intervening years he has grown up a bit and built a very successful business (including taking over the Hood franchise) so guess he is doing something right.

I'm in no way arguing that he isn't, just intrigued at the idea of a reccomendation based on something bought 20 years ago. This must be almost the only product I can think of where such a reccomendation could still have some merit!

And your second point - maybe not, but I find it interesting that where one company can get 80%+ (at a guess) market share in one segment of the market it seems that the rest of the market is still very evenly distributed.

 

[Tranona]

And your second point - maybe not, but I find it interesting that where one company can get 80%+ (at a guess) market share in one segment of the market it seems that the rest of the market is still very evenly distributed.

Hope it does not also represent 80% of their business. Dominating one segment is not healthy when inevitably fashions change and a new competitor sees that big market share and steals it! Arguably better to say 3 roughly equal competitors then not room for a fourth to get in and enough competition to drive development.

 

[KellysEye]

>on price quoted?

There are certainly difference in price for sail making, however I'd start with the sail itself. If you are buying Dacron sails there are various qualities of Dacron according to the amount of glue and fibre used. The more fibre used the more expensive the sail is but it will last much longer before stretching. Also features cost money such as triple stitching and the mainsail leech line led to the mast. The best quality cloth by far is made by Hood.

To check the quality put a bright light beneath each sample of cloth and use a magnifying glass. The difference in fibre/quality will be obvious. Once you have chosen the cloth you want and what if any features you want get as many quotes as possible. Then to get the best price play them off against each other. Hood cloth is not sold to sailmakers, Hood make the sails themselves but will negotiate price.

 

[wizard]

Echo that. I talked to four lofts when choosing sails for Snowbird. Crusader, Quantum, North, Saunders. Got four different stories about what cut and cloth would be best. When probing deeper, each found it difficult to define just why it had recommended what it did; got the feeling it was just "what we normally do". Eventually plumped for North because it offered several alternatives plus good support. One of its choices aligned with what I thought I needed; hi-tech Dacron. Not disappointed.

+1 for North and their hitech Dacron. Best replacements I have had in many years.