bedouin
Well-Known Member
If you are give way then you give way.
If you are stand on in another situation then part of the responsibility of that give way boat is to anticipate you giving way to another vessel.
Colregs don't apply to the elite?
- Thread starter skyflyer
- Start date
If you are stand on in another situation then part of the responsibility of that give way boat is to anticipate you giving way to another vessel.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Well yes, exactly. Those who think the rules specify what should be done in any situation are sadly misguided, because the rules themselves say, effectively, "or whatever else seems like a good idea at the time. They do NOT specify clear actions for every situation, and thinning they do can land you in trouble.
Serin
Well-Known Member
The army of straw men marches on, I see.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
Good link - anyone who mistakenly thinks there is an exclusion zone off Cowes best read it to see exactly what their obligations are when meeting certain vessels in that part of the Solent...
The most helpful advice in it pertaining to this thread is probably: "...Recreational users of the port must familiarise themselves with, and observe, the COLREGS..." (their capitalisation, not mine
)
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BobnLesley
Well-Known Member
I think there are some people arguing this thread at cross purposes?
The dispute seems to be on interpretation of the Col Regs, those who're adamant that not following them to the letter causes confusion, getting very het-up with those who choose the 'know the Col-Regs, but apply some common sense' brigade. I suspect that the latter are not advocating making some unusual or unexpected manoeuvre when the vessels are a couple of boat lengths apart, but more likely, as we often do ourselves, making a course or speed alteration some minutes earlier, thereby avoiding the potential collision situation arising in the first place? We had a perfect example just a couple of days ago:
We were in sheltered, albeit narrow water, broad reaching on starboard tack in about 15 or 16 knots of breeze (the sun was shining too - it was lovely!) whilst coming towards us was a heavily crewed yacht beating hard to windward - getting much closer to it than we ever raise the effort to manage! As they made yet another tack and where finally getting closer/heading towards us on a port tack, though still perhaps 2-3 cables off, it was clear that the crew were doing their very best to hold up to windward and clear our stern. They were doing well, but it was going to be a close run thing and if in another three or four minutes they found that they couldn't make it, then no doubt they would've borne away ahead of our bow, negating all the effort they were putting in now. To avoid that question arising, we turned 20-degrees to starboard, held that for perhaps two minutes, then simply eased back with our bow following their port-quarter around until we returned to our original heading. I doubt we came within 50m of each other, it was a far easier manoeuvre for us to make than for them, I'm sure it caused no confusion for the other crew, though no doubt the helmsman might have heaved a sigh of relief and to my mind, did not contravene the Col Regs in any way; I had simply chosen to alter my course before a 'Collision Situation' ever arose; I'm sure that thousands of people do the same thing every day.
Greek Ferries got a few mentions, but in our experience Greek waters are something of a special case, a bit like Indian roads are (or at least used to be twenty years ago) where the decision as to which is the 'stand on vessel' relates directly to their size & construction; whilst never learning the Greek interpretation of the Col-Regs in detail, we found that following the adage 'GRP gives way to steel' kept us safe.
The dispute seems to be on interpretation of the Col Regs, those who're adamant that not following them to the letter causes confusion, getting very het-up with those who choose the 'know the Col-Regs, but apply some common sense' brigade. I suspect that the latter are not advocating making some unusual or unexpected manoeuvre when the vessels are a couple of boat lengths apart, but more likely, as we often do ourselves, making a course or speed alteration some minutes earlier, thereby avoiding the potential collision situation arising in the first place? We had a perfect example just a couple of days ago:
We were in sheltered, albeit narrow water, broad reaching on starboard tack in about 15 or 16 knots of breeze (the sun was shining too - it was lovely!) whilst coming towards us was a heavily crewed yacht beating hard to windward - getting much closer to it than we ever raise the effort to manage! As they made yet another tack and where finally getting closer/heading towards us on a port tack, though still perhaps 2-3 cables off, it was clear that the crew were doing their very best to hold up to windward and clear our stern. They were doing well, but it was going to be a close run thing and if in another three or four minutes they found that they couldn't make it, then no doubt they would've borne away ahead of our bow, negating all the effort they were putting in now. To avoid that question arising, we turned 20-degrees to starboard, held that for perhaps two minutes, then simply eased back with our bow following their port-quarter around until we returned to our original heading. I doubt we came within 50m of each other, it was a far easier manoeuvre for us to make than for them, I'm sure it caused no confusion for the other crew, though no doubt the helmsman might have heaved a sigh of relief and to my mind, did not contravene the Col Regs in any way; I had simply chosen to alter my course before a 'Collision Situation' ever arose; I'm sure that thousands of people do the same thing every day.
Greek Ferries got a few mentions, but in our experience Greek waters are something of a special case, a bit like Indian roads are (or at least used to be twenty years ago) where the decision as to which is the 'stand on vessel' relates directly to their size & construction; whilst never learning the Greek interpretation of the Col-Regs in detail, we found that following the adage 'GRP gives way to steel' kept us safe.
Serin
Well-Known Member
I tend to disagree. Yes, as is usual, there has been a little fur flying occasionally, but when it comes to "het up" it's six on one and half a dozen of the other. In fact, I'm inclined to think the assault on the "Captain Mainwarings" has been the more ferocious. And it's all a load of rubbish anyway, because the colregs accommodate both the legitimate regulation of normal traffic and the application of common sense. And they only apply in collision situations between vessels in sight of each other. So unless anybody is advocating applying the steering rules recklessly or disregarding them completely at all times (which they are not, as far as I can see) the whole brawl is futile. But I'm not sure that's what it is about at all. Classic internet.......
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l'escargot
Well-Known Member
And you nicely demonstrate what is so often forgotten on threads like this - if there is no risk of collision, you don't even have to consider colregs, they have no relevance. The trick is simply knowing whether there is a risk of collision or not, something that some people seem to struggle with...
southseaian
Well-Known Member
As a generalisation I consider that the more experienced the skipper, the earlier action will be taken to avoid a close quarters situation developing.
For example in the Solent where a Wight Link ferry is seen at a mile away it might be simple to change tack and pass without problems within 3/4 of a mile sea room.
The less experienced allow a closing situation to develop, as may a small number of arrogant types who like to be unhelpful.
For example in the Solent where a Wight Link ferry is seen at a mile away it might be simple to change tack and pass without problems within 3/4 of a mile sea room.
The less experienced allow a closing situation to develop, as may a small number of arrogant types who like to be unhelpful.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
OK, I'm bored by this thread now.
RichardS
N/A
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't like to predict the course of a Wightlink ferry a mile away, they probably don't even know themselves
doug748
Well-Known Member
Aye, aye.
I blame the popular entertainments.
"On a collision course" a phrase beloved of the hack press, does not mean, of itself, there is a danger of collision. The possibility of bumping into each other is a much more subtle thing to do with the speed, direction, proximity and intention of both helms.
southseaian
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't like to predict the course of a Wightlink ferry a mile away, they probably don't even know themselves
Regular sailors in the eastern part of the Solent who are both observant and can read a chart should have a fair idea.
but yes they certainly do have to zig zag about sometimes when the yachties are out in force.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
It was a slightly tongue in cheek comment. I am observant and can read a chart, I also have extensive local knowledge from boating in the Solent for best part of 50 years, regularly in and out of Wootton, Portsmouth, Lymington and Yarmouth. The Wightlink ferries have always had a reputation for bullish and unpredictable behaviour though, their interest in maximising profit, cutting corners if necessary to do so, over-rides most other issues. Red Funnel on the other hand have always seemed much more professional, their boats almost run on rails by comparison.
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jerrytug
N/A
I worked for a season on the Pompey-Fishbourne route on the old Saints, as a humble AB and after a while even steering could get quite repetetive. I always secretly enjoyed it when yachts got in the way!
By the way,
Yes they *have* seen you.
Yes they want you to obey the Colregs to the letter, not fanny about.
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jerrytug
N/A
There is penny-pinching on maintenance, staffing and other things, but the 'behaviour' as you call it of any individual ferry depends on the bridge team, which would be 2 highly alert, quietly spoken professionals plus an AB on the wheel. (3 wheels actually).
The actions of the ferry do not depend on the personality of any one individual.
The 'reputation' is wrong.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
My experience over many years from the outside looking in differs and in recent years, some vessels with foreign skippers in particular, displayed a "different" attitude. The behaviour towards other boats on the two car ferry routes was noticeably different.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
There can't be (m)any people who sail regularly out of Portsmouth who have not experienced or seen behaviour by Wightlink that contravenes Colregs and is either inconsiderate or downright dangerous (and of course the other way round - yachts getting in the way of the ferries in contravention of the regs).
jerrytug
N/A
Perhaps I was lucky with the skippers and 1st's of the ferries I worked on, they would be mortified to hear of this reputation.
Mind you we used to have a laugh on the car decks.. but that's nothing to do with the colregs so my advice is, inform Wightlink straight away if a dangerous incident has occurred.
fair winds Jerry
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bedouin
Well-Known Member
It doesn't take many incidents to get a reputation - I must have seen hundreds if not thousands of encounters between Wightlink and yachts and only a handful have stood out.
It used to be a common subject of discussion on SB a few years back (Whatever happened to Ian Grant
).