Colregs don't apply to the elite?

[jerrytug]

+1 to your last sentence Simon, and they are unlikely to learn by themselves either, plus no RYA practical course offers familiarisation in TSS's etc to the best of my knowledge.

Just getting used to sailing around ships would dispel those irrational fears IMO, just like a learner driver being terrified of the motorway at first.

 

[rotrax]

And 99% of the time, if people didn't panic about the bearings not changing at a neurotically premature stage, the angles would start to open and they'd pass at a perfectly safe distance from the other vessel, be it a large or small one.

I also don't know where some of you guys are sailing that you (feel the) need to take evasive action quite so often. I reckon I count the occasions on the fingers of one hand for every several hundred miles sailed.

Many posters on this thread come across rather like the chap who got a little indignant with us as we left Southampton Water a few weeks back. We were motoring as we didn't want to spend ages beating out of the Solent into a brisk South Westerly against the last of the flood, but get out and on our way West at a good crack. We were tracking down the starboard side of a large ship heading into Southampton before crossing the deep water channel near the Reach SHM. Just ahead of us was another yacht sailing under genoa alone. Predictably, as this yacht passed through the wind shadow of the ship, it slowed a little. As we were motoring, we didn't. Naturally, the gap between us started closing a little less slowly than it had been previously. Just before the ship passed, allowing us to turn to cross the channel astern of it and the other yacht to head back up a little, the chap at the helm of the yacht stood up, waved his arms about and shouted at us, asking us if we wanted to come aboard. We all just looked at each other, back at the chap who was still glaring at us, back at each other in mild bewilderment, said nothing, did nothing but shrug at each other and turned to starboard well clear across his stern, as would have been the obvious outcome to any moderately informed onlooker. The whole thing was entirely predictable, safe and non-threatening. The gap between our bow and his stern never became less than about 60 or 70 feet, with a speed differential of only a knot or so and almost a full boat width of offset, yet for some reason this chap felt unnerved and threatened by the circumstance. I don't understand such thinking and do wonder if it's people like this who start getting jittery as soon as they see a ship pointing in a direction which even vaguely suggests that it's going to end up somewhere within the same two square miles of water that they are in, or an AIS target currently 20 miles away but that has a CPA of less than a mile in 96 minutes time, and so they start menadering all over the place, causing confusion in misguided attempts to avoid situations which are never actually going to occur. If sailing made me as uptight about the possiblity of a collision occuring as it seems it does such people, I'd probably give it up.

I fully agree with the above and have experienced an almost identical situation.
As a frequent Channel crosser the shipping lanes encountered require care and anticipation if busy. This is not normally a problem and AIS helps a lot. First Mate and I prefer crossing at night-we get a daylight landfall and find the shipping lanes easier to negotiate.
To be frank, compared to Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch on the first lap its a doddle.....................................

 

[aquaplane]

I was going to make a deep and meaning full post about how different folk decide on how early and obvious "early and obvious" course changes are made, But I have come to realise that colregs threads are only for folks to brag about how well they understand the regs, so there is no forking point.

 

[prv]

I suppose that depends on how you define work.

Stop digging

You might be able to include some things a yacht might do, towing being the obvious one (although note that you don't become RAM automatically if towing, it has to genuinely restrict your manoeuvrability) . But "being affected by another vessel's manoeuvring" is not going to count however much you wriggle.

Pete

 

[Serin]

Oh dear- that is the nail in your coffin then.

Those that can do, those that can't teach (or become a TV pundit)

Oh dear........But never mind, a star of stage and screen such as myself is used to the jealous jibes of lesser folk - it comes with the territory A TV pundit at the age of 19! Pretty good show, I'd say. Could have made a career out of it, but, alas, I was young and foolish.......... I don't know how old you are, but perhaps it isn't too late for you to become a TV pundit too!

To reiterate - this "debate" (spat?) is between people who think they should observe the collision regulations and, well, people who think they should observe the collision regulations...... So, like so many such spats on the internet, it is really about clashing egos. I'm sure most people here have excellent, friendly relationships with the people we know and meet on the water, strangers included, but the dynamic of the internet makes all the difference. Small differences of perception can so easily slip into "fight to the death" mode.

If there is a difference of opinion, I think it is between those who believe observance of the regulations is the right way to go and those who prefer to avoid collision situations altogether. I'm willing to bet, though, that the minority that thinks that way would still agree that the regs are best if they cannot avoid using them.

The villains of the piece, IMO, are those who simply don't know, or know, but don't bother to learn, about the regulations and those who know, but ignore, them. I certainly haven't come across many of the latter.

 

[RichardS]

And 99% of the time, if people didn't panic about the bearings not changing at a neurotically premature stage, the angles would start to open and they'd pass at a perfectly safe distance from the other vessel, be it a large or small one.

I also don't know where some of you guys are sailing that you (feel the) need to take evasive action quite so often. I reckon I count the occasions on the fingers of one hand for every several hundred miles sailed.

Many posters on this thread come across rather like the chap who got a little indignant with us as we left Southampton Water a few weeks back. We were motoring as we didn't want to spend ages beating out of the Solent into a brisk South Westerly against the last of the flood, but get out and on our way West at a good crack. We were tracking down the starboard side of a large ship heading into Southampton before crossing the deep water channel near the Reach SHM. Just ahead of us was another yacht sailing under genoa alone. Predictably, as this yacht passed through the wind shadow of the ship, it slowed a little. As we were motoring, we didn't. Naturally, the gap between us started closing a little less slowly than it had been previously. Just before the ship passed, allowing us to turn to cross the channel astern of it and the other yacht to head back up a little, the chap at the helm of the yacht stood up, waved his arms about and shouted at us, asking us if we wanted to come aboard. We all just looked at each other, back at the chap who was still glaring at us, back at each other in mild bewilderment, said nothing, did nothing but shrug at each other and turned to starboard well clear across his stern, as would have been the obvious outcome to any moderately informed onlooker. The whole thing was entirely predictable, safe and non-threatening. The gap between our bow and his stern never became less than about 60 or 70 feet, with a speed differential of only a knot or so and almost a full boat width of offset, yet for some reason this chap felt unnerved and threatened by the circumstance. I don't understand such thinking and do wonder if it's people like this who start getting jittery as soon as they see a ship pointing in a direction which even vaguely suggests that it's going to end up somewhere within the same two square miles of water that they are in, or an AIS target currently 20 miles away but that has a CPA of less than a mile in 96 minutes time, and so they start menadering all over the place, causing confusion in misguided attempts to avoid situations which are never actually going to occur. If sailing made me as uptight about the possiblity of a collision occuring as it seems it does such people, I'd probably give it up.

The guy was presumably not a former racer!

Richard

 

[GHA]

"Here lies the body of Michael O'Day,
who died maintaining the right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,

Except he wasn't right at all, had he taken note of rule 2B he'd still around.

 

[Serin]

"Here lies the body of Michael O'Day,
who died maintaining the right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,

Except he wasn't right at all, had he taken note of rule 2B he'd still around.

The whole shenanigan in a nutshell! Brilliant! :encouragement:

 

[GHA]

The whole shenanigan in a nutshell! Brilliant! :encouragement:

Not contentious enough


"Here lies the body of Michael O'Day,
who died maintaining the right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,

Except he wasn't right at all, had he taken note of rule 2B instead of being a complete idiot he'd still around.

 

[dom]

Just ahead of us was another yacht sailing under genoa alone. Predictably, as this yacht passed through the wind shadow of the ship, it slowed a little. As we were motoring, we didn't. Naturally, the gap between us started closing a little less slowly than it had been previously. Just before the ship passed, allowing us to turn to cross the channel astern of it and the other yacht to head back up a little, the chap at the helm of the yacht stood up, waved his arms about and shouted at us, asking us if we wanted to come aboard. We all just looked at each other, back at the chap who was still glaring at us, back at each other in mild bewilderment, said nothing, did nothing but shrug at each other and turned to starboard well clear across his stern, as would have been the obvious outcome to any moderately informed onlooker. The whole thing was entirely predictable, safe and non-threatening. The gap between our bow and his stern never became less than about 60 or 70 feet, with a speed differential of only a knot or so and almost a full boat width of offset, yet for some reason this chap felt unnerved and threatened by the circumstance. I don't understand such thinking...

Suspect RichardS has nailed it in one -- the personal space of a cruiser at sea can be 200m, a racer's <5m.

 

[duncan99210]

I would tend to agree with you, but in the case of Greek ferries, even tiny ones, they simply do not obey Colregs which has suprised and startled me more than once. When a small manouvable ferry comes up behind you with a mile of water on either side, hooting and hooting away without changing course until you do, then you learn that they believe that working vessels have precedence over leisure ones. And it happens again and again. First country I have come across where this happens all the time.

In many parts of Greece, local laws state that ferries do indeed have a right of way over other vessels, hence the hooting......

 

[Cardo]

Keep an eye out for ferries in Malta, also. We were uncomfortably close to a catastrophe when a big Captain Morgan ferry came round a corner, breached COLREGS and nearly mowed us down.

 

[l'escargot]

...exclusion zones are implemented, such as we have off Cowes.

There is no exclusion zone off Cowes - only around some ships as they pass through...

 

[dom]

There is no exclusion zone off Cowes - only around some ships as they pass through...

Precise description is a "Moving Prohibited Zone" which exists within a defined "Precautionary Area". Southampton VTS describes it thus, "All vessels over 150m in length,whilst navigating this area, will have aMOVING PROHIBITED ZONE 1000mahead and 100m to either side. Thesevessels are required to display a blackcylinder by day and three all round redlights in a vertical line at night."

A useful downloadable pdf explaining the details together with some very helpful advice pertaining to this thread may be found here:
http://www.southamptonvts.co.uk/admin/content/files/PDF_Downloads/Yachtsmans-guide-LowRes.pdf

 

[chrishelen]

Keep an eye out for ferries in Malta, also. We were uncomfortably close to a catastrophe when a big Captain Morgan ferry came round a corner, breached COLREGS and nearly mowed us down.

The one we went on out of sliema a few weeks back was a sightseeing boat, huge thing...total disregard for any sort of rules of the road.

 

[Bitterend]

I've done loads of sailing, some in my own yacht and heaps in the Med. The golden rule I always applied when skipper is, I don't give 5 toots about colregs, I assumed the other guy has never heard about or read them and I stayed well clear, sometimes making 90 degree turns. Its a minor inconvenience, gives the crew something to talk about and we always continued in good spirits and in complete safety. I think colregs mirror national approach to EU Regs, the Brits implement and obey, all other countries couldn't give a stuff!!! And of course we all know the south coast of England is full of Captain Blimps who'd rather stand on their dignity than sail safely!!!

 

[Bitterend]

Ha, again its definitely different in Greece, I bought a Stihl chainsaw there with no mention whatsoever of a course or safety gear at all, at all.

And to be fair its not just all about Greek ferries, my experience is that the ferry cox'ns are vastly experienced in manoeuvring. My biggest PIA were the hordes of charter boats, driven (occasionally sailed) by numpties of all nationalities,,, Hence the golden rule, stay alert, act soon and act safe.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Rule 2

No help at all.

In fact, I misquoted. What is the clear and straightforward ACTION when I am simultaneously give-way and stand-on?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Also, the other boats have responsibilities so, for instance, the boat that is stand on to you can see that you are restricted in your ability to manouvre by the other boat and should take action to give you sea room.

That's just the sort of made-up rule people are complaining about. "Restricted in ability to manouvre" is carefully defined in the rules and the definition does not include "by another vessel".

I think you're quite right, by the way, but let's not pretend that you or I would be following the rules when taking the action. We might well be breaking them...

 

[GHA]

I'm

No help at all.

In fact, I misquoted. What is the clear and straightforward ACTION when I am simultaneously give-way and stand-on?

Rule 2.
A set of rules can't cover precisely ever situation. You're a seaman, assess the particular complex situation you are in and take most appropriate action. If the other rules don't cover it then depart from the rules.