Colregs don't apply to the elite?

[pmagowan]

The only relevant rule there in my opinion is Rule 2:

2. Responsibility (a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case

​

And it is precisely the second part of this rule I would rely on to bust out of the normal stand-on requirement when meeting large ships in busy waters. As it happens I fully agree with your view out in open waters during say a Channel crossing. However, in crowded waters where ships must slow down (Rule 6 and they mostly do) I believe that the "special circumstances of the case" by and large requires the little boats to use their heads and get the hell out of the way, thereby affording the ship an opportunity to slowly steam through without giving way to anybody. If this in turn requires the little boats to break a view rules as they sort themselves out, then so be it.

As I have previously said, you are quite entitled to use this rule to get out of what would otherwise be obligations under different rules in a different situation. You can not, however, make a blanket rule of your own that it is good seamanship to avoid the colregs ever time you meet a ferry.

 

[Serin]

The only relevant rule there in my opinion is Rule 2:

2. Responsibility (a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case

​

And it is precisely the second part of this rule I would rely on to bust out of the normal stand-on requirement when meeting large ships in busy waters. As it happens I fully agree with your view out in open waters during say a Channel crossing. However, in crowded waters where ships must slow down (Rule 6 and they mostly do) I believe that the "special circumstances of the case" by and large requires the little boats to use their heads and get the hell out of the way, thereby affording the ship an opportunity to slowly steam through without giving way to anybody. If this in turn requires the little boats to break a view rules as they sort themselves out, then so be it.

Well, I think this demonstrates the point I have been trying to make. The disagreement is entirely spurious, because no-one advocates standing on regardless of circumstances, including the writers of the collision regulations. And most (including you, it seems) do advocate observation of the regulations when normal circumstances apply.

What a storm in a teacup!

Incidentally, you have the advantage of me when it comes to Harry Truman. I have no idea what you mean. However, if your mind is idle, perhaps you might apply it to the question of revised rules for the Solent - if you really do believe the existing ones are inadequate. I look forward to that.

 

[dom]

Well, I think this demonstrates the point I have been trying to make. The disagreement is entirely spurious, because no-one advocates standing on regardless of circumstances, including the writers of the collision regulations. And most (including you, it seems) do advocate observation of the regulations when normal circumstances apply.

What a storm in a teacup!

Incidentally, you have the advantage of me when it comes to Harry Truman. I have no idea what you mean. However, if your mind is idle, perhaps you might apply it to the question of revised rules for the Solent - if you really do believe the existing ones are inadequate. I look forward to that.

I'm not so sure it at all demonstrates what you've been saying. My point is that in the Solent or other busy spots a fluid free for develops when a ship encounters a good number of little boats. And you can forget about notions of stand-on/give-way etc; nobody assumes anybody has any particular rights over anyone and the situation invariably sorts itself out with no trouble at all. If you see a boat lawfully standing on to you you just scream, "Ship ahead! and he will either give way with no questions asked, or reply, "Jeez mate, cheers for that!"

Harry Truman is a Nimitz Class US aircraft carrier

Rules of the Solent are already sorted -- little boats get out of the way or be prepared to flash the cash to Southampton VTS!
http://www.southamptonvts.co.uk/admin/content/files/PDF_Downloads/Yachtsmans-guide-LowRes.pdf

 

[dom]

Speed is always relevant as you can't get into the situation and you can't collide if there is no speed. If you are moving into a possition where you may collide then stopping may be the best option in some cases. Large ships may not be able to do this in a timely manner, although most can make a pretty good attempt if needs must, but small ones certainly can. The 4th is also relevant because you could be made to be a vessel restricted in your ability to manoeuvre by being squeezed into a position where to make a manouvre would cause a collision (which is what I thought was the scenario).

As you missed the smiley face,for the benefit of those who genuinely don't know something like the Emma Maersk (14,700 TEU mega-container vessel) will as I understand it take 5-6 nm, from 25 knots (her maximum speed) to reach a complete stop when 80% loaded with the engine set to max safe engineering astern thrust.

 

[Serin]

Rules of the Solent are already sorted -- little boats get out of the way or be prepared to flash the cash to Southampton VTS!
http://www.southamptonvts.co.uk/admin/content/files/PDF_Downloads/Yachtsmans-guide-LowRes.pdf

And that, too, is covered by the colregs................

Storm Force 10 in a teacup!

 

[Serin]

My point is that in the Solent or other busy spots a fluid free for develops when a ship encounters a good number of little boats. And you can forget about notions of stand-on/give-way etc; nobody assumes anybody has any particular rights over anyone

Yup, that's circumstances for you..... Oh, dear, me. :sleeping:

 

[dom]

Yup, that's circumstances for you..... Oh, dear, me. :sleeping:

Pretty clear that smiley represents the attention you have given the Collregs, happy sailing wherever you are

 

[pmagowan]

As you missed the smiley face,for the benefit of those who genuinely don't know something like the Emma Maersk (14,700 TEU mega-container vessel) will as I understand it take 5-6 nm, from 25 knots (her maximum speed) to reach a complete stop when 80% loaded with the engine set to max safe engineering astern thrust.

Which is why she shouldn't be doing her maximum speed in a crowded sea. My boat takes a few tens of meters to stop from my maximum speed of 6kn and I don't go at maximum speed in a crowded area. Between me and the Emma Maersk following the colregs we should be able to avoid a collision.

 

[dom]

Which is why she shouldn't be doing her maximum speed in a crowded sea. My boat takes a few tens of meters to stop from my maximum speed of 6kn and I don't go at maximum speed in a crowded area. Between me and the Emma Maersk following the colregs we should be able to avoid a collision.

+1 ...and to be honest I never seriously doubted as much . To finally put this to bed, some of the big ship operators would strongly affirm your view that "when at sea" they find little more irritating than a little yacht who starts dancing all over the place in front of them, even when he's quite clearly the stand-on vessel. And for me this is one of the best reasons to install AIS (even the cheapo receive only sets) -- one can clearly see when the ship has altered course alongside the new CPA, and then chill.

 

[pmagowan]

+1 ...and to be honest I never seriously doubted as much . To finally put this to bed, some of the big ship operators would strongly affirm your view that "when at sea" they find little more irritating than a little yacht who starts dancing all over the place in front of them, even when he's quite clearly the stand-on vessel. And for me this is one of the best reasons to install AIS (even the cheapo receive only sets) -- one can clearly see when the ship has altered course alongside the new CPA, and then chill.

There was a big-ship captain on PBO recently talking about how much better the Brits are than the French at following the colregs and that they preferred it if small boats stood on as required. If for no other reason than being better than the French I feel we should continue!

 

[dom]

There was a big-ship captain on PBO recently talking about how much better the Brits are than the French at following the colregs and that they preferred it if small boats stood on as required. If for no other reason than being better than the French I feel we should continue!

Who's this we Tonto? ....I'm from a bit south of you in Dublin Fair City Seriously though, and since we're both on the same rugby side, I fully agree :encouragement:

 

[Serin]

Pretty clear that smiley represents the attention you have given the Collregs, happy sailing wherever you are

Oh dear. Your arguments don't work so you have resorted to pointlessness. Come on, Dom - I suspect this bit of drivel doesn't do you justice!

Have you, perchance, appeared on national television lecturing on the Collision Regulations? (I have )

 

[GHA]

Have you, perchance, appeared on national television lecturing on the Collision Regulations? (I have )

Wild stab in the dark, but was the following days lecture on humility canceled?

 

[prv]

you could be made to be a vessel restricted in your ability to manoeuvre by being squeezed into a position[...]

No, you really cannot, at least according to the Colregs definition of that term.

Pete

 

[pmagowan]

No, you really cannot, at least according to the Colregs definition of that term.

Pete

Explain please. The colregs definition is not exhaustive.

 

[prv]

Explain please. The colregs definition is not exhaustive.

The Colregs definition is:

The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

(My emphasis.)

Anything which is not the nature of your work cannot cause you to be RAM for the purposes of the colregs.


The fact that you've spotted the words "not be limited to" in the subsequent list of examples is a red herring. They mean that the list of examples is not exhaustive, which of course it isn't. They don't mean "also the definition in the previous sentence can be augmented with anything else you like".

Pete

 

[Serin]

Wild stab in the dark, but was the following days lecture on humility canceled?

You're just jealous! No need to feel bad about it. Not all of us can be stars of stage and screen

 

[bedouin]

Have you, perchance, appeared on national television lecturing on the Collision Regulations? (I have )

Oh dear- that is the nail in your coffin then.

Those that can do, those that can't teach (or become a TV pundit)

 

[pmagowan]

The Colregs definition is:


(My emphasis.)

Anything which is not the nature of your work cannot cause you to be RAM for the purposes of the colregs.


The fact that you've spotted the words "not be limited to" in the subsequent list of examples is a red herring. They mean that the list of examples is not exhaustive, which of course it isn't. They don't mean "also the definition in the previous sentence can be augmented with anything else you like".

Pete

I suppose that depends on how you define work.

 

[Simondjuk]

And 99% of the time, if people didn't panic about the bearings not changing at a neurotically premature stage, the angles would start to open and they'd pass at a perfectly safe distance from the other vessel, be it a large or small one.

I also don't know where some of you guys are sailing that you (feel the) need to take evasive action quite so often. I reckon I count the occasions on the fingers of one hand for every several hundred miles sailed.

Many posters on this thread come across rather like the chap who got a little indignant with us as we left Southampton Water a few weeks back. We were motoring as we didn't want to spend ages beating out of the Solent into a brisk South Westerly against the last of the flood, but get out and on our way West at a good crack. We were tracking down the starboard side of a large ship heading into Southampton before crossing the deep water channel near the Reach SHM. Just ahead of us was another yacht sailing under genoa alone. Predictably, as this yacht passed through the wind shadow of the ship, it slowed a little. As we were motoring, we didn't. Naturally, the gap between us started closing a little less slowly than it had been previously. Just before the ship passed, allowing us to turn to cross the channel astern of it and the other yacht to head back up a little, the chap at the helm of the yacht stood up, waved his arms about and shouted at us, asking us if we wanted to come aboard. We all just looked at each other, back at the chap who was still glaring at us, back at each other in mild bewilderment, said nothing, did nothing but shrug at each other and turned to starboard well clear across his stern, as would have been the obvious outcome to any moderately informed onlooker. The whole thing was entirely predictable, safe and non-threatening. The gap between our bow and his stern never became less than about 60 or 70 feet, with a speed differential of only a knot or so and almost a full boat width of offset, yet for some reason this chap felt unnerved and threatened by the circumstance. I don't understand such thinking and do wonder if it's people like this who start getting jittery as soon as they see a ship pointing in a direction which even vaguely suggests that it's going to end up somewhere within the same two square miles of water that they are in, or an AIS target currently 20 miles away but that has a CPA of less than a mile in 96 minutes time, and so they start menadering all over the place, causing confusion in misguided attempts to avoid situations which are never actually going to occur. If sailing made me as uptight about the possiblity of a collision occuring as it seems it does such people, I'd probably give it up.