Colregs don't apply to the elite?

[southseaian]

I can not understand the scenario where you obeying the rules with a greek or russian or martian ferry would put you at risk. They will know what you are doing and can take avoiding action, if they refuse then you can take avoiding action.

So they are approaching you at 18 knots and you are under sail in a force 1. Early and substantial action I can assure you is to start the engine and get out of the way.
This has to do with common sense and happy holidays.

 

[dom]

?

In what situation would the colregs require you to run into Emma Maersk or any other boat?

What I mean is that if another small stand-on boat starts doing a Mainwaring on me, and thereby prevents me from waiving by legal obligation to stand on to the Emma Maersk, which would in turn endanger a gaggle of other vessels if she lawfully gave way to me, then I would simply hit him and explain my thinking to the Insurance Co and possibly Courts later. Perhaps it's just me, but if I have to be labelled a chicken, I'd rather run around like a headless one, than play a game of chicken with the good ship Emma!

But then I think you're just in Friday wind-up mode and I somehow suspect you'd make exactly the same choice

 

[pmagowan]

So they are approaching you at 18 knots and you are under sail in a force 1. Early and substantial action I can assure you is to start the engine and get out of the way.
This has to do with common sense and happy holidays.

Yes, exactly as per colregs. This is basic stuff. The faster the distance between you is closing the earlier you should take action as the stand on boat. So, for 2 yachts sailing at a few knots you might leave it to a few 100 feet. With a fast ferry you might take action at a mile or more. If he is not stand on then he is supposed to take early and obvious action. If he does not take action early or obvious enough then you can do so. You have stood on, assessed and complied with colregs.

 

[pmagowan]

What I mean is that if another small stand-on boat starts doing a Mainwaring on me, and thereby prevents me from waiving by legal obligation to stand on to the Emma Maersk, which would in turn endanger a gaggle of other vessels if she lawfully gave way to me, then I would simply hit him and explain my thinking to the Insurance Co and possibly Courts later. Perhaps it's just me, but if I have to be labelled a chicken, I'd rather run around like a headless one, than play a game of chicken with the good ship Emma!

But then I think you're just in Friday wind-up mode and I somehow suspect you'd make exactly the same choice

Sorry, I can't picture your hypothetical situation. You seem to be saying that another boat is breaking colregs and forcing you to turn into a large cargo ship. Rule 2 allows you to do whatever is necessary in such a situation to avoid a collision. Why not simply stop? Put your engine in reverse, whatever.

 

[bedouin]

With a fast ferry you might take action at a mile or more. If he is not stand on then he is supposed to take early and obvious action. If he does not take action early or obvious enough then you can do so. You have stood on, assessed and complied with colregs.

But therein lies the rub.

It is very hard in a small vessel to assess whether the ferry will pass ahead or behind at a mile or more (without AIS/Radar). If you are stand on vessel under sail and take action when he has already made sure he will pass astern then any action you take is likely to make a collision more likely.

 

[dom]

Sorry, I can't picture your hypothetical situation. You seem to be saying that another boat is breaking colregs and forcing you to turn into a large cargo ship. Rule 2 allows you to do whatever is necessary in such a situation to avoid a collision. Why not simply stop? Put your engine in reverse, whatever.

Nope, I am saying that if I am lawfully the stand-on to a big ship surrounded by a gaggle of other boats including me, I would expect another small boat (who has stand on rights over me) to give me room if I chose not to stand on to the ship as semi-required by law. And that incidentally is the way of the Solent on any busy weekend.

 

[AuntyRinum]

No he has explained the situation very well. See my post #75

Rather different to your post #64. I don't wish to offend but we all have a duty to be accurate on a public forum, and to make the statement that racers in Falmouth don't have to comply with COLREGS is irresponsible when it may be accepted as true by newcomers to racing in that area.

 

[southseaian]

Yes, exactly as per colregs. This is basic stuff. The faster the distance between you is closing the earlier you should take action as the stand on boat. So, for 2 yachts sailing at a few knots you might leave it to a few 100 feet. With a fast ferry you might take action at a mile or more. If he is not stand on then he is supposed to take early and obvious action. If he does not take action early or obvious enough then you can do so. You have stood on, assessed and complied with colregs.

There are so many possibilities. I've yet to see a motoring cone in Greek waters. Motor sailing is common, how are ferries supposed to know.

You might be surprised just how many yachts play chicken with ferries or even ships here in the Solent.

 

[FWB]

Rather different to your post #64. I don't wish to offend but we all have a duty to be accurate on a public forum, and to make the statement that racers in Falmouth don't have to comply with COLREGS is irresponsible when it may be accepted as true by newcomers to racing in that area.

Well let's go back to post #52
(b) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules. (c) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of any special rule made by the government of any State with respect to additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals for ships of war and vessels proceeding under convoy, or with respect to additional station or signal lights or shapes for fishing vessels engaged in fishing as a fleet. These additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals shall, so far as possible, be such that they cannot be mistaken for any light, shape, or signal authorised elsewhere under these Rules.
.
dom's post summed up the reality of the situation. However the racing boat would be forced to give way but the other vessel was not only in breach of the bye laws but also of the rule above.
Basically keep out of the way of racing boats in the Falmouth area and no one will be breaking any rules also it will be a lot safer all round.

 

[pmagowan]

But therein lies the rub.

It is very hard in a small vessel to assess whether the ferry will pass ahead or behind at a mile or more (without AIS/Radar). If you are stand on vessel under sail and take action when he has already made sure he will pass astern then any action you take is likely to make a collision more likely.

Yes, If he does not take action that is obvious to you then you may need to take action. But then if you stand on you will find that his bearing is changing and thus you are not going to collide. Of course it is up to you to determine how long you can stand on for before you feel you need to take action but the longer you stand on the more time you have to determine if he has taken action. If you feel you need to take action then it should be clear and sufficient to avoid the risk of constant corrections by both boats up to a collisions. i.e. if he doesn't make an obvious change then you should and the risk is avoided.

 

[pmagowan]

Nope, I am saying that if I am lawfully the stand-on to a big ship surrounded by a gaggle of other boats including me, I would expect another small boat (who has stand on rights over me) to give me room if I chose not to stand on to the ship as semi-required by law. And that incidentally is the way of the Solent on any busy weekend.

Yes, another vessel is required to give you room, so all is well.

 

[pmagowan]

There are so many possibilities. I've yet to see a motoring cone in Greek waters. Motor sailing is common, how are ferries supposed to know.

You might be surprised just how many yachts play chicken with ferries or even ships here in the Solent.

Once again, other people avoiding their responsibilities under colregs does nothing to change your responsibilities. If someone does not display a motor cone then you may have to assume that he is sailing and take the appropriate action. There is no scenario not covered by colregs as colregs have the get out clause in rule 2.

 

[Serin]

Excellent point

It might be, possibly, if anyone was actually advocating the scenario Dom describes. But, of course, that is not the case.

If the regulations are inadequate for the Solent (although they seem to serve pretty well elsewhere) then I would love to see some specific suggestions as to how they should be re-written. That would be the basis for an interesting debate.......

 

[prv]

Yes, another vessel is required to give you room

Without meaning to take sides here, is that correct?

A criticism sometimes leveled at the Colregs is that they don't handle multi-vessel situations very clearly, and I can see some truth in that.

Which rule says that if Dom wants to make an early manoeuvre to keep clear of a ferry, another boat which would normally be obliged to hold its course instead has to make room for him?

I think that if he (quite reasonably) wants to avoid getting into a risk-of-collision situation with the ferry and forcing it to keep clear of him, then he needs to do it while also keeping clear of the other yacht. The obvious solution is to slow down.

Pete

 

[Serin]

Seems to me that this "debate" generates enough straw men to populate a veritable Glastonbury of a pagan festival.

 

[dom]

Seems to me that this "debate" generates enough straw men to populate a veritable Glastonbury of a pagan festival.

In the Glastonbury vein it is pouring here in the SE of the UK; and as the saying goes, "an idle mind is the devil's workshop!" And in there he's saying today, "go on dude, stand on to the Harry Truman!"

 

[pmagowan]

Without meaning to take sides here, is that correct?

A criticism sometimes leveled at the Colregs is that they don't handle multi-vessel situations very clearly, and I can see some truth in that.

Which rule says that if Dom wants to make an early manoeuvre to keep clear of a ferry, another boat which would normally be obliged to hold its course instead has to make room for him?

I think that if he (quite reasonably) wants to avoid getting into a risk-of-collision situation with the ferry and forcing it to keep clear of him, then he needs to do it while also keeping clear of the other yacht. The obvious solution is to slow down.

Pete

All of the below and more may apply

2. Responsibility (a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case

17. The stand-on vessel The stand-on vessel shall maintain her course and speed, but she may take action to avoid collision if it becomes clear that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action, or when so close that collision can no longer be avoided by the actions of the give-way vessel alone. In a crossing situation, the stand-on vessel should avoid turning to port even if the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action. These options for the stand-on vessel do not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligations under the rules.[6]

6. Safe speed Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.
In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:
(i) the state of visibility;
(ii) the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
(iii) the maneuvrability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions; (iv) at night the presence of background light such as from shore lights or from back scatter of her own lights;
(v) the state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;
(vi) the draught in relation to the available depth of water.

(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term "vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre" shall include but not be limited to:

 

[dom]

All of the below and more may apply

The only relevant rule there in my opinion is Rule 2:

2. Responsibility (a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case

​

And it is precisely the second part of this rule I would rely on to bust out of the normal stand-on requirement when meeting large ships in busy waters. As it happens I fully agree with your view out in open waters during say a Channel crossing. However, in crowded waters where ships must slow down (Rule 6 and they mostly do) I believe that the "special circumstances of the case" by and large requires the little boats to use their heads and get the hell out of the way, thereby affording the ship an opportunity to slowly steam through without giving way to anybody. If this in turn requires the little boats to break a view rules as they sort themselves out, then so be it.

 

[prv]

All of the below and more may apply

The first two are catch-alls which mean that nobody would be blameless if dom steered at the other yacht and it carried straight on and hit him. But that doesn't mean it's ok for him to do so.

The third one doesn't seem to be relevant. Unsafe speed is not a factor in this scenario.

The fourth is definitely not relevant. "I want to avoid mixing it up with that ferry" is not the nature of Dom's work, and if you think the bits you've highlighted mean otherwise then you have failed to parse the sentence correctly.

Pete

 

[pmagowan]

The first two are catch-alls which mean that nobody would be blameless if dom steered at the other yacht and it carried straight on and hit him. But that doesn't mean it's ok for him to do so.

The third one doesn't seem to be relevant. Unsafe speed is not a factor in this scenario.

The fourth is definitely not relevant. "I want to avoid mixing it up with that ferry" is not the nature of Dom's work, and if you think the bits you've highlighted mean otherwise then you have failed to parse the sentence correctly.

Pete

As I have said, Colregs have this rule to allow the circumstances to be taken into account. Speed is always relevant as you can't get into the situation and you can't collide if there is no speed. If you are moving into a possition where you may collide then stopping may be the best option in some cases. Large ships may not be able to do this in a timely manner, although most can make a pretty good attempt if needs must, but small ones certainly can. The 4th is also relevant because you could be made to be a vessel restricted in your ability to manoeuvre by being squeezed into a position where to make a manouvre would cause a collision (which is what I thought was the scenario).