Colregs don't apply to the elite?

[Serin]

Good lord - Captain Mainwarings with their obsession with rules versus safe experienced sailors who can make different judgements in different circumstances to keep themselves and others safe.

You do the good Captain an injustice. His solutions to the scrapes in which he and his gallant band so often find themselves are sometimes the very models of the unorthodox and the ingenious.

The rift between those who advocate observance of the regulations and those who bring up all kinds of examples in which it would be unwise to stick rigidly to the steering rules in order to challenge that position (often with all kinds of insults from both sides) is false and ridiculous. Safe, experienced sailors observe the rules in normal circumstances but use their judgment as to when to avoid getting into a collision situation or putting another vessel in an impossible situation. I don't believe either "camp" is advocating anything else.

The problem lies with those who don't know the regulations or who know them but don't observe them when they should and could be expected to do so. Then things become unpredictable and, at close quarters, potentially dangerous. Not being a denizen of the Solent, I rarely come across such people. I suspect this is mostly a problem in places that attract a lot of occasional sailors whose knowledge of the regulations is sketchy and who may not be able to predict the places and conditions (such as those described in this thread) where it's best to avoid getting into a close quarters situation in the first place.

 

[pmagowan]

Good lord - Captain Mainwarings with their obsession with rules versus safe experienced sailors who can make different judgements in different circumstances to keep themselves and others safe.

Good post......

Please explain the contradiction with the rules! What we are really talking about is Captain Mainwarings who think they are right and that their own personal rules trump the legal ones and therefore completely ignoring their legal obligations and making it more difficult for everyone else on the water while giving yachties a bad name. The colleges are what is used by safe experienced sailors who can make different judgments in different circumstances.

2. Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case
(b) In construing and complying with these rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger

 

[AuntyRinum]

So don't impede racing boats in Falmouth or you could in theory be up before the Beak....it might be his racing boat you obstructed
Also, the Working Boats "don't do starboard"

Notwithstanding Bye Law 13 in Falmouth doesn't relieve racing yachts of their obligation to comply with the COLREGS.

 

[FWB]

Notwithstanding Bye Law 13 in Falmouth doesn't relieve racing yachts of their obligation to comply with the COLREGS.

I'm afraid it does.

 

[dom]

Please explain the contradiction with the rules! What we are really talking about is Captain Mainwarings who think they are right and that their own personal rules trump the legal ones and therefore completely ignoring their legal obligations and making it more difficult for everyone else on the water while giving yachties a bad name. The colleges are what is used by safe experienced sailors who can make different judgments in different circumstances.

There is no contradiction; the IRPCS are simply ill-designed and ill-suited to dynamic multi boat situations where any avoiding action by one immediately creates multiple new situations for others. Chaos would quickly ensue where a fleet of little boats under the Captaincy of Mainwaring all enforced their rights over a thumpting big ship! That is why the little boats mostly do the sensible thing and collectively indicate to the bigger vessel that they will get out of his way and allow him to gently steam to his destination. Where the little boats don't accept this principle, exclusion zones are implemented, such as we have off Cowes.

 

[Talulah]

I'm afraid it does.

I disagree. The byelaw is to prevent other boats from being in the area causing an obstruction etc.
However, if you were in breach of that byelaw normal collision regs would still apply.
The Harbour authority could bring a prosecution for breaching Byelaw 13 but ColRegs would have still applied to any close quarters situations.

 

[FWB]

I disagree. The byelaw is to prevent other boats from being in the area causing an obstruction etc.
However, if you were in breach of that byelaw normal collision regs would still apply.
The Harbour authority could bring a prosecution for breaching Byelaw 13 but ColRegs would have still applied to any close quarters situations.

Not so, the "special rules" apply.

 

[pmagowan]

There is no contradiction; the IRPCS are simply ill-designed and ill-suited to dynamic multi boat situations where any avoiding action by one immediately creates multiple new situations for others. Chaos would quickly ensue where a fleet of little boats under the Captaincy of Mainwaring all enforced their rights over a thumpting big ship! That is why the little boats mostly do the sensible thing and collectively indicate to the bigger vessel that they will get out of his way and allow him to gently steam to his destination. Where the little boats don't accept this principle, exclusion zones are implemented, such as we have off Cowes.

The colregs allow you to take account of the situation. You would be in breach of the colregs if you did as your captain Mainwarings and cause a dangerous situation.

 

[Serin]

There is no contradiction; the IRPCS are simply ill-designed and ill-suited to dynamic multi boat situations where any avoiding action by one immediately creates multiple new situations for others.

It is an interesting exercise to try to design regulations that could cover these kinds of situations. It isn't difficult until you start with, but then you begin to think through the implications and the new opportunities for misunderstanding, misinterpretation etc. the "new" rules might generate. I can just imagine the ill tempered debates on here........

If the situation you describe is anything other than a caricature, then I pity anyone who has the misfortune to sail in the Solent. But I suspect you are indulging in a bit of "reductio ad absurdum". I hope so, anyway.

 

[Talulah]

Not so, the "special rules" apply.

I don't see any special rules relating to stand on and give way. So just because you've broken Byelaw 13 which is a special rule relating to interference it doesn't then give everyone trumps over you. Just because you've broken one rule doesn't mean all the other rules are negated.

 

[FWB]

I don't see any special rules relating to stand on and give way. So just because you've broken Byelaw 13 which is a special rule relating to interference it doesn't then give everyone trumps over you. Just because you've broken one rule doesn't mean all the other rules are negated.

I don't race in the Carrick Roads I just sail there.
Basically you must keep out of the way of boats which are racing. Every time the harbour authority publishes a NM regarding a race they bring your attention to Rule 13.
It's quite sensible really, the racing boats get on with racing and the rest of us steer around them. Probably safer that way.

 

[Talulah]

I don't race in the Carrick Roads I just sail there.
Basically you must keep out of the way of boats which are racing. Every time the harbour authority publishes a NM they bring your attention to Rule 13.
It's quite sensible really, the racing boats get on with racing and the rest of us steer around them. Probably safer that way.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But if you found yourself in the area for whatever reason then normal colregs would apply. The offence of breaking Byelaw 13 would be completely separate.

 

[dom]

If the situation you describe is anything other than a caricature, then I pity anyone who has the misfortune to sail in the Solent. But I suspect you are indulging in a bit of "reductio ad absurdum". I hope so, anyway.

I know it all sounds a bit theatrical, but that is indeed life on the Solent on an average summer weekend! Funny thing is, go around the back of the IoW and it's all peace and serenity, aside from a few tricky overfalls mind ...then there's the submarine exercise zone a bit further south. Come to think of it, who is the stand on vessel if one can only see his periscope

 

[laika]

I'm not disagreeing with you. But if you found yourself in the area for whatever reason then normal colregs would apply. The offence of breaking Byelaw 13 would be completely separate.

The obvious comparison is presumably that the requirement for a sailing vessel not to impede a power driven vessel following a TSS doesn't relieve the power driven vessel of its obligations under the COLREGS should it find itself impeded by an errant WAFI.

 

[FWB]

I'm not disagreeing with you. But if you found yourself in the area for whatever reason then normal colregs would apply. The offence of breaking Byelaw 13 would be completely separate.

The point of the rule is that you shouldn't find yourself in that position. If you stay clear of the racing boats, as required by the rule, then the COLREGS won't be up for discussion.

 

[AuntyRinum]

I'm afraid it does.

No it doesn't. It instructs small boats not to impede processions and regattas. Any boat, including a racing boat, still has to obey the COLREGS even if the other vessel is breaking the byelaw.

 

[GHA]

The colregs allow you to take account of the situation. You would be in breach of the colregs if you did as your captain Mainwarings and cause a dangerous situation.

+1 . You just have to read *all* of it.

 

[FWB]

No it doesn't. It instructs small boats not to impede processions and regattas. Any boat, including a racing boat, still has to obey the COLREGS even if the other vessel is breaking the byelaw.

You have missed out racing.
Here is the bye law..

Falmouth Harbour Bye Law 13
.
Small vessels to avoid regattas, etc.
13. The master of a small vessel on the occasion of any boat race, regatta, championship race, public procession or any other occasion when a number of small vessels are assembled therein shall not permit his small vessel to pass therein so as to obstruct, impede or interfere with the boat race, regatta, championship race or procession, or endanger the safety of persons assembling in the harbour, or prevent the maintenance of order therein, and the master of a small vessel shall observe the directions of the Harbour Master or other persons authorised by the Commissioners to superintend the execution of this bye-law?

 

[dom]

No it doesn't. It instructs small boats not to impede processions and regattas. Any boat, including a racing boat, still has to obey the COLREGS even if the other vessel is breaking the byelaw.

The Falmouth bye-law is (I think) a bit like a beefed up version of RRS Rule 24.1 which states, "If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with aboat that is racing.". A boat infringing the Falmouth bye-law would find itself liable to a fine or other penalty, but it does not as I understand it confer any Right of Way on the racing boat over the non-racing boat which has broken the bye-law. In other words the racing boat should apply the IRPCS to a vessel which is breaking the bye-law and then report him to the Harbour Master.

 

[jerrytug]

Try shouting "Starboard!" at one. The fabled response is "we don't do starboard"

Thanks! Funnily enough I am just upgrading my bowsprit shrouds to permanent SS wire, and I will be parking my two long, heavy poling-out poles, with bronze end fittings, under them and fixed to the cranse iron, (due to lack of reliable tradewinds in the Channel).
The front of the boat looks like an ancient Roman battering ram for beseiging a fortress... FWB's, bring it on