VicS
Well-known member
I think if you were to read the Southampton Harbour Byelaws you will find that the ship should have been displaying a cylinder!
Collision in Solent this afternoon - Incoming Tanker / Yacht
- Thread starter islandsailor
- Start date
I think if you were to read the Southampton Harbour Byelaws you will find that the ship should have been displaying a cylinder!
Chrissie
New member
Something I have noticed is that the ships seem to make their turn to starboard at different spots, before now I have been waiting off Egypt point to see if the ship heading up is going to come straight through to the Needles, (rare, I know) or if it will make a last minute turn. Some ships turn early and some late, perhaps the yacht skipper had banked on the ship turning early and the area being clear by the time he reached it. If that was Gurnard, the ship wasnt leaving it late,
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Resolution
Well-known member
A couple of extracts from the Black Group Sailing Instructions should make it clear which regulations apply:
"B17 COMMERCIAL SHIPPING
B17.1 Southampton Harbour Byelaws (changing RRS 60)
(a) Boats shall observe the Associated British Ports (ABP)
Southampton Harbour Byelaws 2003 (see page 12) at all
times and avoid any close quarters situation with large
commercial shipping. Particular note should be made of
Byelaws 10 & 11 and Associated British Ports Southampton
Notice to Mariners No. 3 of 2011 giving details of a moving
prohibited zone, which ranks as an obstruction for the
purposes of RRS 19 and 20.
(b) Protests for infringements of B17.1(a) may be brought only
by the race committee who may initiate a protest as the
result of a report from an ABP Pilot or Patrol boat. Note
that ABP may initiate court proceedings against boats that
infringe this byelaw."
"Notices to Mariners and local by elaws
Sharing our wa ters in safety
(a) The Solent is home to two of the nation’s major ports, Southampton,
which is operated by Associated British Ports (ABP). and Portsmouth,
which is controlled by the Queen’s Harbour Master (QHM),
and Cowes Harbour which is managed by the Cowes Harbour
Commission (CHC). The Solent sees all sizes of vessel and it is vital
that they are able navigate up the Solent safely while causing the
minimum disruption to Regatta competitors.
(b) During the Regatta, volunteer ABP pilots, the Cowes Harbour Master
or his Deputy and one of the Red Funnel Ferry masters, assist the Race
Officers on the RYS Platform, communicating shipping movements
to help with race planning, and escorting ships through the race areas.
Throughout the year the harbour authorities work closely with yacht
clubs, safety committees and CWL to plan carefully for the Regatta,
including mark laying and advice on regatta organisation.
(c) Southampton VTS makes succint Traffic Information Broadcasts on
channel 14 on the hour. These contain details of current and expected
movements of large vessels as well as other safety information. All
major vessel movements within Cowes Harbour are announced on
channel 69.
Precautionary Area (Thorn Channel)
(see also diagram on laminated chartlet)
(a) All vessels navigating within the Port of Southampton shall ensure
that a vessel greater than 150m shall be given a ‘clear channel’
between the Hook Buoy and the Prince Consort Buoy, hereinafter
referred to as ‘The Precautionary Area’.
(b) When navigating within the ‘Precautionary Area’ referred to above,
all vessels over 150m in length are automatically allocated a ’Moving
Prohibited Zone’ (MPZ). The MPZ is an area extending 1,000 metres
ahead and 100 metres either side of any vessel of over 150 metres in
length overall whilst it is navigating within ‘The Precautionary Area’.
(c) The master of a small vessel (less than 20 metres in length or a
sailing vessel) shall ensure that the vessel does not enter an MPZ."
It goes on to state that the vessel over 150m should be displaying a black cylinder, presumably because she is constrained by draught. (Not RAM). Anyone checked the video to spot the tanker's cylinder?
As TK states, it is quite impractibable to set courses to avoid big ship movements, but there are very few really close shaves. I do hope that this incident does not result in ABP imposing restrictions on yacht racing in the Solent.
"B17 COMMERCIAL SHIPPING
B17.1 Southampton Harbour Byelaws (changing RRS 60)
(a) Boats shall observe the Associated British Ports (ABP)
Southampton Harbour Byelaws 2003 (see page 12) at all
times and avoid any close quarters situation with large
commercial shipping. Particular note should be made of
Byelaws 10 & 11 and Associated British Ports Southampton
Notice to Mariners No. 3 of 2011 giving details of a moving
prohibited zone, which ranks as an obstruction for the
purposes of RRS 19 and 20.
(b) Protests for infringements of B17.1(a) may be brought only
by the race committee who may initiate a protest as the
result of a report from an ABP Pilot or Patrol boat. Note
that ABP may initiate court proceedings against boats that
infringe this byelaw."
"Notices to Mariners and local by elaws
Sharing our wa ters in safety
(a) The Solent is home to two of the nation’s major ports, Southampton,
which is operated by Associated British Ports (ABP). and Portsmouth,
which is controlled by the Queen’s Harbour Master (QHM),
and Cowes Harbour which is managed by the Cowes Harbour
Commission (CHC). The Solent sees all sizes of vessel and it is vital
that they are able navigate up the Solent safely while causing the
minimum disruption to Regatta competitors.
(b) During the Regatta, volunteer ABP pilots, the Cowes Harbour Master
or his Deputy and one of the Red Funnel Ferry masters, assist the Race
Officers on the RYS Platform, communicating shipping movements
to help with race planning, and escorting ships through the race areas.
Throughout the year the harbour authorities work closely with yacht
clubs, safety committees and CWL to plan carefully for the Regatta,
including mark laying and advice on regatta organisation.
(c) Southampton VTS makes succint Traffic Information Broadcasts on
channel 14 on the hour. These contain details of current and expected
movements of large vessels as well as other safety information. All
major vessel movements within Cowes Harbour are announced on
channel 69.
Precautionary Area (Thorn Channel)
(see also diagram on laminated chartlet)
(a) All vessels navigating within the Port of Southampton shall ensure
that a vessel greater than 150m shall be given a ‘clear channel’
between the Hook Buoy and the Prince Consort Buoy, hereinafter
referred to as ‘The Precautionary Area’.
(b) When navigating within the ‘Precautionary Area’ referred to above,
all vessels over 150m in length are automatically allocated a ’Moving
Prohibited Zone’ (MPZ). The MPZ is an area extending 1,000 metres
ahead and 100 metres either side of any vessel of over 150 metres in
length overall whilst it is navigating within ‘The Precautionary Area’.
(c) The master of a small vessel (less than 20 metres in length or a
sailing vessel) shall ensure that the vessel does not enter an MPZ."
It goes on to state that the vessel over 150m should be displaying a black cylinder, presumably because she is constrained by draught. (Not RAM). Anyone checked the video to spot the tanker's cylinder?
As TK states, it is quite impractibable to set courses to avoid big ship movements, but there are very few really close shaves. I do hope that this incident does not result in ABP imposing restrictions on yacht racing in the Solent.
Aries
New member
If you look at the chart of the restricted area shown in an earlier post,(#67, by Old harry) it shows that turns take place dependent upon the direction of the tide, wind etc. Those of us that sail regularly in the Solent should be aware of this. I don't have my Reeds to hand, but believe it is shown in there, but certainly on the APT chart.
One stupid action like this could mean further restrictions/ regulations being applied in the Solent as well as other areas. The final report and its recommendations will make interesting reading.
One stupid action like this could mean further restrictions/ regulations being applied in the Solent as well as other areas. The final report and its recommendations will make interesting reading.
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Capt Cautious
New member
Vessels constrained under rule 9 are invariably, but not always, constrained by their draft - thus making it a narrow channel. In order to be constrained by draft, under the colregs, the vessel must be constrained by both width and depth of navigable water. Rule 9 would almost certainly have been the primary applicable rule, whether a cylinder was displayed or not. It is a fact however that very few vessels actually display cylinders when then should be, even when they are constrained. This is because of a somewhat flexible understanding amongst some seafarers of the use of the signal. I have doubts as to whether a lot of leisure sailors would actually uinderstand the signal and its implications.
I'm not entirely sure if the point you are making is that "its the tankers fault because she wasnt displaying a cylinder"? Perhaps you could elaborate ?
CC
GinjaNinja
New member
Hanne Knutsen's path and speed etc
Solent Coastguard was alerted at 15:20 BST
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/da...3&menuid=&datasource=POS&app=&mode=&B1=Search
MMSI Speed Latitude / Longitude Course Timestamp
235598000 0.5 -1.3245 50.841 60 2011-08-06 15:27
235598000 1.2 -1.323667 50.84083 216 2011-08-06 15:25
235598000 1.5 -1.322833 50.84017 259 2011-08-06 15:23
235598000 5.1 -1.308 50.82516 321 2011-08-06 15:21
235598000 0.4 -1.323 50.83917 348 2011-08-06 15:19
235598000 1.4 -1.322833 50.83883 323 2011-08-06 15:17
235598000 1.5 -1.322333 50.83833 323 2011-08-06 15:14
235598000 1.5 -1.321667 50.83767 321 2011-08-06 15:12
And the Hanne Knutsen's AIS path
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?zoom=9&oldmmsi=235598000&olddate=8/6/2011 3:21:00 PM
Cant seem to track the yacht at present
Solent Coastguard was alerted at 15:20 BST
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/da...3&menuid=&datasource=POS&app=&mode=&B1=Search
MMSI Speed Latitude / Longitude Course Timestamp
235598000 0.5 -1.3245 50.841 60 2011-08-06 15:27
235598000 1.2 -1.323667 50.84083 216 2011-08-06 15:25
235598000 1.5 -1.322833 50.84017 259 2011-08-06 15:23
235598000 5.1 -1.308 50.82516 321 2011-08-06 15:21
235598000 0.4 -1.323 50.83917 348 2011-08-06 15:19
235598000 1.4 -1.322833 50.83883 323 2011-08-06 15:17
235598000 1.5 -1.322333 50.83833 323 2011-08-06 15:14
235598000 1.5 -1.321667 50.83767 321 2011-08-06 15:12
And the Hanne Knutsen's AIS path
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?zoom=9&oldmmsi=235598000&olddate=8/6/2011 3:21:00 PM
Cant seem to track the yacht at present
l'escargot
New member
Where they start their turn is dependant on the direction of the tide - "early" on the ebb and "late" on the flood.
Probably the biggest factor contributing to the collision is the yacht skippers total disregard of the exclusion zone. If he had observed that the collision would never have happened. His course should not have been set to pass less than a 1000 yards in front of the ship and if by error he found he was nearing 100 yards from the side of the ship he should have turned away. Unless there was some event which prevented him from stopping or turning his boat then he was reckless to carry on.
Capt Cautious
New member
Re I think if you were to read the Southampton Harbour Byelaws you will find that the ship should have been displaying a cylinder!
Don't rely on foreign vessels having access to local byelaws. They may be a big issue to local users of the solent - but to those of us who visit once a year on large ships, compliance with the colregs is priority - and is all the information we invariably have apart from wha is written on the chart. Many foreign vessels dont even have Pilot Books. Local byelaws are not officially promulgated to foreign vessels. This kind of information is often supplied by the pilot as he walks onto the bridge.
CC
Don't rely on foreign vessels having access to local byelaws. They may be a big issue to local users of the solent - but to those of us who visit once a year on large ships, compliance with the colregs is priority - and is all the information we invariably have apart from wha is written on the chart. Many foreign vessels dont even have Pilot Books. Local byelaws are not officially promulgated to foreign vessels. This kind of information is often supplied by the pilot as he walks onto the bridge.
CC
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
Sorry if this has already been mentioned. I imagine, or would not be surprised if the skipper/owner had an additional problem looming in the form of a potential insurance claim, as the boat was being deliberately sailed in an exclusion zone, that would have been known to said skipper/owner, then it would be hard to argue 'accident'. Its more on the lines of negligence, surely?
gerry99
New member
There seems to be a remarkable amount of common sense missing in some of these discussions about whether or not the tanker was displaying a cylinder!
I would have thought that anyone, even a skipper of a yacht in a race, some of whom in my personal experience seem to think that being in a race absolves them of any responsibility to comply with the IRPCS, would have concluded that a bloody great big bright orange gas tanker with tug attached to her stern to assist her passage round the bramble bank, and also making a very loud noise with her horn should have been given plenty of room and a wide berth irrespective of what day shape she was or was not showing.
I would have thought that anyone, even a skipper of a yacht in a race, some of whom in my personal experience seem to think that being in a race absolves them of any responsibility to comply with the IRPCS, would have concluded that a bloody great big bright orange gas tanker with tug attached to her stern to assist her passage round the bramble bank, and also making a very loud noise with her horn should have been given plenty of room and a wide berth irrespective of what day shape she was or was not showing.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
There seems to be a remarkable amount of common sense missing in some of these discussions about whether or not the tanker was displaying a cylinder!
I would have thought that anyone, even a skipper of a yacht in a race, some of whom in my personal experience seem to think that being in a race absolves them of any responsibility to comply with the IRPCS, would have concluded that a bloody great big bright orange gas tanker with tug attached to her stern to assist her passage round the bramble bank, and also making a very loud noise with her horn should have been given plenty of room and a wide berth irrespective of what day shape she was or was not showing.
Yep, especially as the HM escort vessel appears to have already had words with the Atalanta.
Capt Cautious
New member
The colregs do have a tendency to put into the written word what is essentially common sense. Some people unfortunately do need to be legislated for, as the common sense plug-in is not installed.
CC
CC
Icarus39
New member
There seems to be a remarkable amount of common sense missing in some of these discussions about whether or not the tanker was displaying a cylinder!
I would have thought that anyone, even a skipper of a yacht in a race, some of whom in my personal experience seem to think that being in a race absolves them of any responsibility to comply with the IRPCS, would have concluded that a bloody great big bright orange gas tanker with tug attached to her stern to assist her passage round the bramble bank, and also making a very loud noise with her horn should have been given plenty of room and a wide berth irrespective of what day shape she was or was not showing.
Quite Gerry ... for me it boils down to basic survival instinct .... fight or flight .... if it's 20 times as long as me and 5000 times heavier I go for the flight option every time. Get the H&ll out of dodge
l'escargot
New member
It would be interesting to know what those words were.
Whiskey Bravo
New member
There seems to be a remarkable amount of common sense missing in some of these discussions about whether or not the tanker was displaying a cylinder!
I would have thought that anyone, even a skipper of a yacht in a race, some of whom in my personal experience seem to think that being in a race absolves them of any responsibility to comply with the IRPCS, would have concluded that a bloody great big bright orange gas tanker with tug attached to her stern to assist her passage round the bramble bank, and also making a very loud noise with her horn should have been given plenty of room and a wide berth irrespective of what day shape she was or was not showing.
+1 and many more I should think.
Whitelighter
Active member
Well, I hope they are all ok but . . .
. . . why would anyone want to go even within 100mtrs of a ship with the spinnaker up?
Because they were racing in all probablility.
Had to take evaisove action a few weekends ago where a couple of boats ignored the colregs on the basis they were racing (I was also SAILING by the way)
Email sent to the RCYC not that I expect much
evm1024
New member
Quite Gerry ... for me it boils down to basic survival instinct .... fight or flight .... if it's 20 times as long as me and 5000 times heavier I go for the flight option every time. Get the H&ll out of dodge
Simply known as the "Tonnage Rule"....
boomerangben
Well-known member
Wonder what impact this will have on one of the most prestigious of sailing regattas. Does not put racing sailors in a good light and not great publicity for sponsors and the like. Could Harbour authorities ban sailing regattas on the Solent on the grounds of safety?
st599
Well-known member
Fined by Southampton HM for breaking VTS bye-laws. He's looking at a fine of a few grand.
PhilTJ
New member
Couple of people have mentioned the tug at the stern of the ship.
My own experience was that we'd often make one fast astern in ships this size when entering or leaving port (and sometimes drag them stern-first for miles). The tug's function was to improve our manoeuvring and stopping ability.
A large, single-screw vessel isn't too handy!
My own experience was that we'd often make one fast astern in ships this size when entering or leaving port (and sometimes drag them stern-first for miles). The tug's function was to improve our manoeuvring and stopping ability.
A large, single-screw vessel isn't too handy!