Collision damage - what would you check

[JerryHawkins]

I had the misfortune to be hit by another vessel whilst minding my own business at anchor at the weekend. No doubt as to who's fault - my anchor ball up and two independent witness vessels anchored either side of me!

My boat is about 12tons and the boat that hit me is 26tons. He was 'aiming' at my midships at an angle of about 45 degrees to my bow and luckily (after I noticed him and shouted) turned at the last moment and hit me a very hard 'glancing blow'. His external chain plates (old gaff cutter) ripped a 2 foot gash in my topsides (right through a good 1/2 to 3/4" GRP) and some other relatively minor scuffs to paintwork and woodwork.

I actually saw the point of impact as it happened and I was amazed how such thick GRP could bow inwards - the gash split open and then closed up after the pressure of the impact was releaved.

Naturally this is now in the hands of insurers and since the repairs are likely to run into thousands, they will likely appoint a surveyor. What would you check for? I've been looking carefully at various seams around bulkheads and the like internally and wondering if that gap was there before, or was it as big etc. etc. My boat is a heavily built Colvic Watson and the other boat a very solid wooden goliath.

My other concern is that the repairs will involve a topsides repaint and due to colour matching issues would probably involve the complete side. Do I have a 'leg to stand on' in terms of saying - hang on a minute, I can't have a boat with one side repainted - the other side will look terrible in comparison - I want it all done? I suppose his insurers will argue ‘betterment’.

Early days yet. I could have done with not losing use of the boat for the next month at least whilst all this gets sorted. Still no one was hurt, that's the main thing, and it could have been so much worse.

 

[MrCramp]

Given these circumsrances it is vital you get a surveyour involved as soon as possible and he needs to be one who has dealt with this sort of impact damage previously. You are perhaps best asking forum members for a recomendation of such a surveyour rather than armchair opinions of the likely damage. Your own insurance company should be able to advise you but I would check up with others before you accept an appiontment.

Good luck getting this sorted.

 

[ga1135]

Sorry to hear the misfortunate.

I have similar experience to share with you. Years ago my boat was hit by a junk and opened a 3x3 ft hole at the bow and gone with the anchor well cover + other bow gear damages. All at their faults.

After repaired, I claimed for full repaint both side of the topside & replace all deck non-slip mats to make the boat looks "intact" and be marketable.

My Insurance company only recovered me one side (half) topside painting cost & damaged area non-slip mats. I claimed to reserve the rights to claim the rest sum from other boat owner myself. Finally, my insurance company successfully to claim the full repairing cost for me but they classified me as a "Bad claimer" and add 200% premium loading next year.

Of course, I changed the insurance company later.

 

[TiggerToo]

sounds like a nightmare: where did this happen?

 

[dt4134]

Beware that the surveyor the insurance company appoints will be acting for the insurance company not you. Make sure you get a full clarification of that from the insurance company up front so you understand the situation from the start.

If the damage is very expensive you may want to consider appointing your own surveyor even though you're unlikely to be able to claim for the cost that.

Beware that the insurance company will use betterment as an excuse to reduce the value of the claim, you'll have to be on the ball to make sure they don't do so unfairly or unreasonably. Think about whether it will affect the price of the boat when you come to sell.

 

[koalaman]

Do You have Legal Protection

Sorry to hear of your loss. Does you insurance include a legal protection cover. If so this may be used to help you. They would certainly give you legal advice as to how you stand, plus they may be able to assist claiming all the costs involved.
If you don't have legal cover on your boat insurance, you may have some legal cover included in your home insurance. This may also be able to give you advice on how to claim back any extra costs that the insurance dont want to pay (like painting the other side). They may not be able to help you actually claim this back but worth a try as they can sometimes give handy advice.

 

[lw395]

It probably costs more than 60% of a full repaint to do one half? Get separate quotes for half and whole.

In terms of damage, I would be looking around all interior structures such as furniture which may have been stressed by the hull deforming.
Also around the chainplates and rigging.
Hull-Deck joint

The inside of the laminate- may be weakened by the bending. Any flowcoat may have cracked or crazed. Look for crazing around any stiff points such as bulkheads or stringers up to a metre or more from where the GRP visibly bent.

Main thing is to end up with a boat you could sell with a clear conscience, better to be £1k out of pocket than to end up with a permanently spoilt boat. So you need repairers you can trust. And a surveyor who is acting for you, not the repairer or the insurance co.

Get photos taken during the repair. The repairer should be happy with this, they love a good 'here's one we fixed earlier' advert.

At least you have a strong boat where if it ends up 95% of original strength it will still be 200% strong enough!

I might try arguing that 'the boat will never be the same again, but I will settle for a full repaint'.

 

[JerryHawkins]

Thanks for your input

I appreciate your input. I do have extra 'legal protection' as part of my insurance policy and I have made contact with them to 'register my position'. They suggested that with such a clear-cut case, the third party's insurer should just pay up, but said I could contact them again should any problem arise.

Thinking about a claim for 'loss of use/enjoyment' whilst the boat is out of commision for a good month. Was wondering how you quantify that and the thought occured to me that they should pay for me to charter a similar sized yacht for a month. What do you think?

 

[dt4134]

I appreciate your input. I do have extra 'legal protection' as part of my insurance policy and I have made contact with them to 'register my position'. They suggested that with such a clear-cut case, the third party's insurer should just pay up, but said I could contact them again should any problem arise.

Thinking about a claim for 'loss of use/enjoyment' whilst the boat is out of commision for a good month. Was wondering how you quantify that and the thought occured to me that they should pay for me to charter a similar sized yacht for a month. What do you think?

I've got a record of how much I've spent on the boat (even small items) in a spreadsheet. Sad I know but I really wanted to know how much it was costing me.

I've also got a log of days & miles sailed, so I think I can come up with a reasonably justifiable cost & pattern of use if I ever need to.

I presume you've got a comprehensive log, so you can show evidence of a pattern of use in the last few summers. If you've also made definite plans & invited crew along you could perhaps use that too. If you can reasonably re-create how much you've spent, receipts & credit card bills might help and you can probably make a reasonably justifiable guess at consumables like diesel etc you'll be able to come up with a figure for what you'd invested in the sailing you've lost. Just you berthing fees will be a huge chunk of it.

Failing that you could try chartering for the periods you would have been sailing. Not sure whether you'd get the entire month unless you've got a strong argument that you would have spent the whole month sailing.

 

[robmcg]

Our previous boat was hit on its mooring but the offending boat legged it with no witnesses. There was paint damage to one side and I asked for the whole hull to be repainted (it was blue) on the basis it was all one colour blue before the accident and having two sides being slightly different colours would devalue the boat. They were shouting 'betterment' and wouldn't budge. I collected opinions from paint experts, paint appliers and a couple of surveyors I know and presented their findings supporting my claim. The insurance company were not happy - at all but did paint the whole hull as requested. Just remember 'betterment' is their get out of jail free card!!!!

 

[JerryHawkins]

Good argument

Our previous boat was hit on its mooring but the offending boat legged it with no witnesses. There was paint damage to one side and I asked for the whole hull to be repainted (it was blue) on the basis it was all one colour blue before the accident and having two sides being slightly different colours would devalue the boat. They were shouting 'betterment' and wouldn't budge. I collected opinions from paint experts, paint appliers and a couple of surveyors I know and presented their findings supporting my claim. The insurance company were not happy - at all but did paint the whole hull as requested. Just remember 'betterment' is their get out of jail free card!!!!

I like that idea, sounds like a good argument. I'm expecting a 'fight', so will be prepared. I read somewhere about the idea of 'inevitable betterment'. Carrying out a repair which involves painting will inevitably lead to a finish that is better than it was before (unless it was brand new before!). You shouldn't be penalised for this.

 

[Hardley]

Sorry to hear of your troubles, been in the same possition myself on 3 occassions.
Regarding hiring another craft, advice that I got was yes if you had a holiday planned, but only hire for period of holiday, other advice was no you cant, dodgy subject so I did not hire.
Get your own surveyor to do a full inspection, you will be surprised at where the damage could have spread to, door posts, furniture, cracks on other side of the boat.
Keep list of all expenses and when all is repaired cliam for loss of value to the boat, my insrurers said that I could not claim for this, but I went ahead and claimed against the other party, they sent their surveyor and he agreed with the figure I was claiming and they paid up.
Good luck.

 

[Mudplugger]

I had the misfortune to be hit by another vessel whilst minding my own business at anchor at the weekend. No doubt as to who's fault - my anchor ball up and two independent witness vessels anchored either side of me!

My boat is about 12tons and the boat that hit me is 26tons. He was 'aiming' at my midships at an angle of about 45 degrees to my bow and luckily (after I noticed him and shouted) turned at the last moment and hit me a very hard 'glancing blow'. His external chain plates (old gaff cutter) ripped a 2 foot gash in my topsides (right through a good 1/2 to 3/4" GRP) and some other relatively minor scuffs to paintwork and woodwork.

I actually saw the point of impact as it happened and I was amazed how such thick GRP could bow inwards - the gash split open and then closed up after the pressure of the impact was releaved.

Naturally this is now in the hands of insurers and since the repairs are likely to run into thousands, they will likely appoint a surveyor. What would you check for? I've been looking carefully at various seams around bulkheads and the like internally and wondering if that gap was there before, or was it as big etc. etc. My boat is a heavily built Colvic Watson and the other boat a very solid wooden goliath.

My other concern is that the repairs will involve a topsides repaint and due to colour matching issues would probably involve the complete side. Do I have a 'leg to stand on' in terms of saying - hang on a minute, I can't have a boat with one side repainted - the other side will look terrible in comparison - I want it all done? I suppose his insurers will argue ‘betterment’.

Early days yet. I could have done with not losing use of the boat for the next month at least whilst all this gets sorted. Still no one was hurt, that's the main thing, and it could have been so much worse.

May I suggest that you very carefully check all bulkhead/furniture mouldings on the opposite side to the impact area, with heavier built craft it is not unknown for heavy impact damage to be transmitted across the width of the hull.I would also support the idea of utilising the services of an independent surveyor, Granted you will have to pay! but suspect that if collision damage as serious as you describe, probability is you are looking at a claim in region of 15-20k

 

[Leonidas]

I've got a record of how much I've spent on the boat (even small items) in a spreadsheet. Sad I know but I really wanted to know how much it was costing me.

I've also got a log of days & miles sailed, so I think I can come up with a reasonably justifiable cost & pattern of use if I ever need to.

I presume you've got a comprehensive log, so you can show evidence of a pattern of use in the last few summers. If you've also made definite plans & invited crew along you could perhaps use that too. If you can reasonably re-create how much you've spent, receipts & credit card bills might help and you can probably make a reasonably justifiable guess at consumables like diesel etc you'll be able to come up with a figure for what you'd invested in the sailing you've lost. Just you berthing fees will be a huge chunk of it.

Failing that you could try chartering for the periods you would have been sailing. Not sure whether you'd get the entire month unless you've got a strong argument that you would have spent the whole month sailing.

You will have to discuss this with your underwriters. Sadly, loss of use comes under the consequential loss exclusion and as such is not recoverable. Previous blogs give good suggestions as to where you should be inspecting the vessel and that you should also be prepared to expose hidden areas in way of the contact damage so that you are reasonably sure that you have carried out a good damage survey.
I would add that before you commit to any repairs, I suggest that you employ a good surveyor who will carry out a thorough inspection and draught a good repair specification negotiate and agree with the insurance surveyor and repairers the total scope of work and costs. Also factor in the cost of lifting out and storage fees as these repairs cannot be carried out afloat. Finally if the work prove to be too prolonged, you should also argue the cost of antifouling the vessel before puting her back in the water.

 

[peterb]

Sadly, loss of use comes under the consequential loss exclusion and as such is not recoverable.

Is that the legal position or the insurance position? Forgetting insurance for the moment, does that mean that consequential loss is not legally recoverable from the other side? Or does it mean that neither insurance policy gives cover against consequential loss?

 

[Boo2]

Is that the legal position or the insurance position? Forgetting insurance for the moment, does that mean that consequential loss is not legally recoverable from the other side? Or does it mean that neither insurance policy gives cover against consequential loss?

IANAL, but I think that neither insurance policy will likely cover consequential loss to the policy holder. However if you are claiming damages from the other side then they will be covered for *your* consequential loss, for which you are entitled to sue.



Boo2

 

[Leonidas]

Is that the legal position or the insurance position? Forgetting insurance for the moment, does that mean that consequential loss is not legally recoverable from the other side? Or does it mean that neither insurance policy gives cover against consequential loss?

This is a most unfortunate incident , particularly when one has been looking forward all year for the time to put to sea and enjoy the boat.
I think BOO2 sums it up correctly. Ordinary yacht policies do not usually cover loss of use. I understand that the Loss of use can be separately covered but as an additional insured peril and at the cost of an additional premium. This is what commercially used boats ,that need to mitigate loss against loss of hire ,sometimes take. However, there is nothing stopping you from pursuing legally your loss of use.against the offending party. Litigation can be expensive thus if your insurance ( and ususally do) includes legal cover perhaps you may consider making full use of the premium you have already paid to take a good advice on the legal position and chances to recover under the offending party's 3rd party liability insurance.

 

[JerryHawkins]

Thanks again

Thanks to all, once again, for the helpful replies. I have compiled all the information I have to date and forwarded this to the legal people; I await their response.