Cold weather engine starting problems.

[AndrewB]

My Perkins 4-108 has recently become much harder to start after a break of a week or two. It just seems to need to turn over for a long time before it 'catches'. Last weekend, I had to switch batteries. When it finally starts there are copious clouds of smoke, though it clears after a minute.

There's no problem running, and it will restart easily within the same day. The pre-heater is working (I've been giving it about 30 secs in cold weather). There's no indication that a cylinder is 'missing' when it starts. Compression checked fine a year ago.

SWMBO says perhaps the diesel needs time to get through - but that can't be right, can it?

 

[omega2]

if you can get at it easily use swbo;s hair dryer in the inlet manifold for a minute or two, do not resort to easy start once used the old girl will get hooked on the stuff. the engine I mean not the Mrs.

<hr width=100% size=1>J HAMER

 

[Chris_Robb]

Andrew - does the 4-108 have a heating element in the air inlet manifold? certainly the 4-236 does. I have never used it on the 4236 as it always starts first turn even in very cold weather.



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[Avocet]

I've heard this bit of engine folklore before - about engines getting addicted to easy-start! I'm interested because I'm probably going to have to resort to that on mine soon.

Surely they don't get addicted to it! Isn't it just the case that by the time they're knackered enough to need it, they don't subsequently "fix themselves" so that's why they need it from then on?

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[ParaHandy]

starting my 3gm became a bit difficult recently as well. good churn for 40-60 secs instead of 10. fully charged the batteries and starting is back to normal (for this time of year) which is what i did last year but forgot ...

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[AndrewB]

Yes ... that's what I called the pre-heater. I never used it before, don't really know if its doing any good now.

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[Birdseye]

Could you have a small air leak in the fuel supply? Or alternatively, poor compression from worn bores / rings means the engine doesnt fire until enough lube oil is splashed onto the bores to improve the seal.?

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[Trevethan]

My ageing Lister doesn't have a pre-heat, but there is a manual control on the engine that lets you dump lots of extra fuel into it (I think) for cold starting. However so far - touch wood I haven't had to use it.

Think maybe its your batteries? Perhaps the cold is eating into their ability to spin things fast enough?

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[VicMallows]

How have you checked that pre-heater is working? If you monitor battery voltage it should significantly dip while on preheat. Indicator light is no indication. You are lucky to have a preheat facility! ... the Bukh doesn't have one as standard. As another poster comments, a hot-air blower works fine. I use the eberspacher (when working!) but it needs at least 5 minutes.

One or more glow-plugs have just yesterday given up on the car ... same problem and lots of smoke ... off to Halfords in the morning!

Vic

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[Heckler]

if you are getting loads of smoke when it does finally start it means you are getting diesel where it matters when it matters. the prob is it is not firing, for it to work you need a fine spray of atomised diesel (thats why they call diesel gas oil) into a hot air pocket caused by hi compression. if it is not atomising it wont bang easily but the diesel will collect in the piston crown until it does fire, it could be that you have lo compression also and the diesel collecting in the piston crown builds up and causes a higher compression ratio so making it start when it has built up.
if you are sure the compression is ok get the injectors checked. on the 4108 they are easy to remove and lay on their sides, do that and reconnect the pipes, turn the engine over slowly and see if the injectors are dribbling or actually breaking and spurting in a fine spray instantaneously. you should hear something like a creaking sound as they break and spurt.
if they are dribbling that is the answer, they need cleaning and setting
stu

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[Heckler]

its folk lore, if you use a start fluid there is a good chance that you can break the piston rings or pinch them in the piston ring lands, the ether explodes before the timing point is reached and puts extra shock loading on the rings and lands, its like when you use lo octane petrol in a hi compression ratio engine, the pinking is predetonation and it causes damage to the top end of the piston including the lands. they dont become addicted its just that the condition of the engine can deteriorate quickly and require more use of the fluid.
i have found that ou can use wd40 as a starter fluid, the flammable propellant will fire but isnt as aggressive as the ether used in some starter fluids.
stu

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk

 

[VicMallows]

I'm certain this is an old-wives-tale as long as it's used judiciously. Certainly it can cause damage if you spray loads of it directly into the air intake. It causes such a big explosion that you could damage the rings and loose compression. It also dilutes the lubrication with similar effects. In less extreme conditions WD-40 (or similar) stuff will also work and is argueably less agressive.

I would certainly not sail in winter without a can on board (no pre-heat on the BUKH). ...... and the petrol grass strimmer would never start without it!!

Vic

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[VicMallows]

Sorry, we doubled almost word for word on that one!

Vic

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[supermalc]

Engines do not actually get 'addicted' to easy start, but once it has been used they often won't start without using it.

Diesel engines work by injecting atomised diesel into the air, and then compressing it untill it is so hot it ignites. If the flash point is not reached, then the engine will not start. Poor compression caused by worn cylinder bores and pistons and rings is the main cause, as is burnt valves; the latter is less of a problem with diesels than petrols in my experience.

Either (Easy Start) has a lower flash point than diesel, so used sparingly this will aid starting. The trouble is the power of combustion is far greater than the engine was designed for. Any leaks through head gasket, valves or worn pistons and rings will quickly be worsened.

I have only recently learnt WD40 can be used to aid starting. I believe this is far more suitable for the odd cold start, when the air is just too cold to get the engine to fire.

Indirect injection diesels need preheating. They just will not start without this. So if the preheating elements are not working, even 1 glow plug on a 4 cylinder will seriously affect starting. Some older engines have a glow plug in the inlet manifold. Diesel is squirted onto this, causing a small flame and heating the air entering the engine. Most engines using this method often smoke badly when first started, mainly from the unburnt diesel in the inlet manifold.

So a 5 second squirt of Easy Start is all that is required. If the engine still won't start after a second attempt, I would seriously consider calling an engineer to rectify the problem. Don't keep squirting easy start in, as this is when serious damage can result. So serious it destroys the engine. If it is an old engine, and a full recondition is necessary, well it is often the best to carry on using easy start, but plan for a replacement, or repair in the near future.

<hr width=100% size=1>Malcolm.
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[sailorman]

u can check the "pre-heater" by using a mirror to look into the inlet manifold @ start-up, its a bit un-nearving first its a drip feed system over a hot wire

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[Talbot]

two possibilities:

pre-heater elements need replacing (those on my car need to be done abt every 4 years)
battery needs charging



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[Chris_Robb]

Put a multimeter on the terminals when you hold the key over (contortionist required) and see whether there is any voltage. If not - replace glow plug.

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[VicMallows]

Surely if there is NO voltage the relay or some other part of the circuit is faulty? You would have to measure the resistance of the plug or current drawn to isolate a particular faulty plug?

Vic

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[Heckler]

i know i dash in as well but great minds etc

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk

 

[pheran]

Sorry Andrew, not much help with your problems but this thread does illustrate how far diesel engines have come on in recent years even though the basics are the same. A modern diesel should not need any form of cold start device (quote from major manufacturer) and indeed, a number of manufactureres are no longer fitting them, Cummings and Iveco for example. I read a boat report some time back where a newly-fitted large Cummins fired up quite happily every time in -23C Scandinavian winter conditions. The new Ivecos I fitted to my last boat would start immediately if you just looked at them, never mind turning the keys! All without cold starting devices. And now I'm on bl***y Volvos again

Sorry about the drift............

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>A convert to steel boats and displacement cruising - the only way to go</font color=blue>