Col reg conundrum!

[Solitaire]

And we think we have it bad sometimes. I subscribe to a US forum and there has been considerable discussion regarding the rights of Kite surfers over powerboats.

[ QUOTE ]
Just to let everyone know, if you come across a kiteboarder you MUST give way if not under sail or man power. Kiteboarders are considered sail powered. I can't tell you how many times I've been cut off by power boats. Hell, I've had to jump over one before and almost got charged with wreckless endangerment for jumping over it to save my own butt.

Sorry, going off on a rant here, but you must know you have to give way to kiters as you would a sailboat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, the discussion has been quite heated at times and the Kite surfer even went so far as to post a diagram of the incident. The Kite surfer is the Black arrow on the diagram and the boat he jumped is the red one.

Answers on a postcard! For what it's worth, my view is that the red boat is the stand off vessel and as such has a requirement to take positive action by slowing down and passing behind the kite surfer. However, the discussion on the US forum is that Kite surfers do not have the same rights as a yacht under sail! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif This would then allow the red boat to be correctly positioned to pass the second powerboat - i.e port to port. This then lends a conundrum to the second powerboat in terms of his actions! Relative to the Kite surfer, this boat is also the stand off vessel but which way does he turn?? IMHO the kite surfer pulls the stripes here but common sence might be applicable!

 

[kindredspirit]

Power gives way to sail and a kiteboard is sail.

The red boat should have turned to starboard and the grey boat should have stopped.

Pity there isn't a photograph of the kite boarder doing a steeplechase jump over the red boat!

In a potentially dangerous situation its sometimes a very good idea just to stop completely.

 

[wooslehunter]

The simple explanation is correct. Power gives way to sail so both the red and the grey boat must give way to the kite & then sort themselves out.

If we assume the kite as a vessel under power then the red boat still has to give way since it has the other vessel on its starbourd side. However, the kite should keep clear of the grey boat.

Now let's complicate things a little. The arguement below stands if the kite is considered under sail or under power.

Everyone should navigate at a safe speed (Rule 6). i.e. even under sail, you can't just speed through other boats and expect them to get out of the way if its not practical. Secondly, if a give way vessel doesn't give way, then the stand on vessel should take avoiding action (Rule 17 - action by stand on vessel).

Jumping over is an indication that the kite left this too late by either failing to keep a proper lookout (Rule 5) or sailing too fast. Therefore although the situation is caused by the red vessel not giving way, the kite is also to blame.

Now consider overtaking. This is another situation where sail must give way to power. It's clear that the kite is not overtaking since it's outside an arc of 22.5 deg abaft the beam of the red boat. However, if it overtook then it can't cut up the red boat without giving room to keep clear.

Rules exist to put the blame onto you if you don't avoid a situation that you could have avoided even though you are the stand on vessel. i.e. too fast or no propoer watch causing you to react too late.

Don't speed, expect the other guy not to give way, have a backup plan and execute it in good time.

 

[Talbot]

The simple statement that power gives way to sail is an often quote but wrong statement! However, in this case it is correct that both motor boats should have given way.

Most sailing folk are aware that if they are overtaking a power boat (can happen - look at the speeds ellen is doing) then the boat being overtaken has the priority, regardless of which is power and which is sail. Then there are all the special circumstances such as constrained by depth, not under command etc.

If you want to play in the ocean, you need to understand the rules /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Mike21]

Generally agree both powerboats should have given way, though that would also depend on as they were close to a coned of beach area whether any local byelaws came into play or whether it was a restricted channel. It also doesn't absolve the kitesurfer from blame as he should have altered course when he realised that the red boat wasn't.( Unsure whether jumping over another boat would classified as altering course /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif)
Had a dig on web, appears kitesurfers are <font color="red">not</font> classified as sailboats yet.
Try this site for some info.

One interesting comment they make on that site is that <font color="purple"> "inexperienced skipper of a motorboat should be treated the same as a vessel restricted in it's ability to manouver"</font> /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Solitaire]

That Kite site makes interesting reading. I think I'll go stir it across the pond!! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I'd suggest that the Col regs already cover the point - however should we perhaps consider the kite as a plane! Discuss! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Solitaire]

Re: You got laugh sometimes

I've been following the saga and the guy involved just posted this wonderful quote!

[ QUOTE ]
There is no channel, it was right off the beach into the gulf of mexico. Those small red dots are the swim bouy's, marking the swimming zone. There's no channel off of the beach.

It wouldn't have been a tight squeeze for me, I would have made it with plenty of time if the red boat would've done what was correct. I have not ridden in a channel before, all the kiters here stress that we shouldn't because that's where accidents will occur.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just about sums it all up really! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Mike21]

Interesting point as people normally fly a kite, and the kite part is classified as a wing not a sail, so maybe they should be classed as sea planes /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Solitaire]

Yup, and have leading edges, just like an airplane

 

[Mike21]

Re: You got laugh sometimes

Definately saily type person /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Should post link to site so can have a good read.
As noted on previous post, they don't have sails but wings so not sure they qualify as saily type vessels /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Just for fun definitions of sailing vessel <font color="blue">"The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used" </font>

 

[Mike21]

Bit more digging looks like you need a mast and hull to be classified as a sailing vessel, you could have a lot off fun stirring it across the pond /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Solitaire]

I am! Just posted something else! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Peppermint]

Re: I don\'t give em rights at all.

Firstly because I don't see that they're vessels.

Secondly because they don't seem to need me to give way.

Thirdly they're going so bloody quick I'd have to jump over them to give way.

 

[SteveE]

Re: I don\'t give em rights at all.

Sorry can someone remind me how many points for a kite boarder?

 

[paulineb]

Re: I don\'t give em rights at all.

Oh for goodness sake guys. So much rhetoric over such a simple solution. Right it's like this.

1. Don't go out at night because all those fecking lights are confusing

2. Big is king. So tankers come first. Kite boarders, just hang around the outskirts til it's safe to go. If you fall off tread water.

3. Slow things - just get out of the way of fast things.

......... erm, i think that's everything covered.

 

[SteveE]

Re: I don\'t give em rights at all.

I agree with Pauline, if you are bigger than it, and it will not damage your gellcoat run it down, if neither of the former applies give way.. Poses the question why do people make the regs so difficult? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Piere]

Re: I don\'t give em rights at all.

I guess the kiter boarder had no place to be in a channel or fairway for vessels
If there had been an incident how on earth would the authorities had sorted it out

 

[Bergman]

Don't recall anything in Colregs about giving way by jumping over another vessel.

Once in the air it can't be a boat so must be an aircraft best refer to FAA for low flying regs

Even if it is a boat once it leaves the water it can't be "under command" so he's wrong again for not showing correct signals.

Why jump over another boat what a damn silly thing to do

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Re: I don\'t give em rights at all.

3. Slow things - just get out of the way of fast things.

[/ QUOTE ]

erm, how?

 

[kingfisher]

A kite surfer does not fall under the colregs and cannot therefore claim right of way under those rules:
Rule 3 (a) The word "vessel" includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water

A kite-surfer is not a means of transportation, but rather a "beach recrational object" - "tuig voor strandvermaak" ( term used by Dutch bylaws).

iow: inflatable crocodiles, surfboards, wakeboards and kiteboards