Coastguard position announcement

[stephen_h]

We heard Solent coastguard giving a Pan Pan announcement at the weekend.
Started with a lat and long position and then a desciption of the emergency.
The lat and long meant nothing to me out in the cockpit!

Someone then called up and asked where the casualty was to which they replied south of Lyme Regis.

Why don't they announce the position as 5 miles south of Lyme Regis to start with, so anybody in the area
can then note the exact location?

 

[Blue_mischief]

I agree, distance and bearing is much easier to visualise than a string of lat and long figures. We sailed from the Clyde to Skye in April and had several encounters with NATO warships on exercise. One was a live fire exercise which was announced on the VHF a number of times, giving times and lat and long, always read out very quickly. I didn't realise how close we were until we heard the gunfire. I would have been much more aware of the position of the exercise if a distance and bearing had been given, ".... 7 miles south west of Sanda......" or whatever.

 

[oldharry]

Heard on VHF in the Irish Sea many years ago: Pleasant sounding young female voice: "Holyhead Coastguard, Holyhead Coastguard, this is Coastguard Mobile XXX, I cannot receive you in this position". An unknown male voice responded: "Which position would you like then, dear". There was a long silence....

 

[chubby]

We heard Solent coastguard giving a Pan Pan announcement at the weekend.
Started with a lat and long position and then a desciption of the emergency.
The lat and long meant nothing to me out in the cockpit!

Someone then called up and asked where the casualty was to which they replied south of Lyme Regis.

Why don't they announce the position as 5 miles south of Lyme Regis to start with, so anybody in the area
can then note the exact location?

Absolutely agree! They now cover such a huge area that if they gave a general indication such a hayling bay, western solent, off the needles or whatever then I would know when to note the lat and long and plot position! otherwise just gets lost.


Equally in reverse I have heard station in trouble giving a perfectly adequate position like 100M west of Chi beacon and be asked for lat and long, is it lack of local knowledge from someone reading a script?

 

[prv]

Equally in reverse I have heard station in trouble giving a perfectly adequate position like 100M west of Chi beacon and be asked for lat and long, is it lack of local knowledge from someone reading a script?

The impression I get is not necessarily a script so much as a computerised form to fill in. It clearly has a box for lat and long and they really really want someone to give them something to put in it. I can only assume the newbies are uncomfortable with taking a descriptive position or a range and bearing and converting it into a lat and long themselves.

I’ve heard similar calls, a range and bearing from an unambiguous well-known landmark, from someone shorthanded and busy dealing with an emergency in a small boat, being hassled to provide a lat and long. Obviously I wasn’t going to interrupt emergency communications but I was quite tempted to ask the chap from the Fareham callcentre if he didn’t have a chart to plot it on.

When it’s the coastguard announcing a position I can only assume it’s a lack of thought on their part about how those hearing the call are likely to use the information. Formal navigational warnings start with a zooming-in series of descriptions (eg “English Channel - Eastern Part - Off Dover”) before getting to numerical positions for exactly this reason; ad-hoc announcements ought to do something similar albeit possibly simplified.

Pete

 

[johnalison]

I think it is a general thing. I would like to think that if I gave my position in an emergency I would say something like 'three miles SE from Long Sand head, latitude etc'. It is very hard when listening to know whether the call is relevant or not, and my initial response tends to be to assume that it doesn't.

 

[NorthUp]

we are being quietly conditioned to accept that only lat and long positions are acceptable, as that is what the DSC will churn out.. after the Ch16 voice listening watch is discontinued.

 

[JumbleDuck]

To be fair, how many of us don't have instant access to latitude and longitude at all times? "A cable and an 'arf, south-west by west of Mizen Head (me dearie)" is OK if your idea of the coastguard is Old Jem, patrolling the cliff tops with is battered telescope and muttering "It's a foul night and no mistake" before sending a boy to the village to wake Alf Scoggins and tell him to get the laaaads together, because the lifeboat will be needed ere the night be over, but we're past that now. Lifeboats and helicopters will want latitude and longitude, which may as well be given my the person who knows them best.

Of course there is no harm in a descriptive position as well. in case someone nearby is listening.

 

[Graham376]

To be fair, how many of us don't have instant access to latitude and longitude at all times? .

Most have access to our own lat and long at a glance but I for one don't sail with pencil and paper to hand in the cockpit. We used to get a request from CG for any vessels located near (area name) to assist.

 

[horatio_nelson]

I had exactly this the other day. CG issued a lat/long position for a motorboat needing a tow, I knew it was fairly close by but was too busy to plot the position on a chart, so I asked the CG for a description of the position - CG came back with "6miles west of Portland Bill" - I think to most sailors that description is far more helpful and much more likely to elicit a positive response from someone local, and consequently a successful outcome.

Seems like a no-brainer to me, giving lat/long AND a description relative to known places / marks etc.

 

[bobgarrett]

I agree, and when they only read it out once, what chance do we have.
Perhaps they should read it out twice and say a rough location so the casualty can also say "yes, that's right" or "no, sorry I read it out wrong".

 

[matt1]

I agree, distance and bearing is much easier to visualise than a string of lat and long figures. We sailed from the Clyde to Skye in April and had several encounters with NATO warships on exercise. One was a live fire exercise which was announced on the VHF a number of times, giving times and lat and long, always read out very quickly. I didn't realise how close we were until we heard the gunfire. I would have been much more aware of the position of the exercise if a distance and bearing had been given, ".... 7 miles south west of Sanda......" or whatever.

We had the same a couple of weeks ago on the s coast in VERY poor visibility (why on earth were they doing live firing in such?) with the lat long read out v quickly. on the third broadcast (fortunately every quarter of an hour or so) I was eventually able to note down the numbers and do some rough maths to work out the delta on my current position. Really would have been simpler to add "6 miles SW of Portland Bill" after the lat long. But don't get me started on the CG...every time I hear Solent CG these days I shudder. I hope I never have to call them in earnest. Sad

 

[Uricanejack]

The world has changed.
Today a significant proportion of boats have some kind of GPS giving a Lat Long position. In Particular automatic distress call and those given by EPIRB, PLB and Red Buttons. Are GPS Lat Long.
Often prior to relaying the distress the CG would have to plot the position to figure out a geographical reference.

I would think the logical action by CG relaying a call is to relay the position they received first. In the format the position was received. Then update it later to include Geographic reference.

Personally, I would recommend giving a verbal geographic reference if Calling for assistance. As a Listener I have no clue where a LAT Long is until I plot it. I will know right away if its near me. And I know the name. If Not. If they got it right, I can usually find it quickly in the sailing directions.

There again. I have been given the Name of a Rock a boat was aground on and taking on water. Only to end up calling RCC and point out I was looking right at the rock in question with no boat on it. We eventually found the unfortunate boat on a different rock. Near a different Island.
Of course logic would also indicate if the boater had actually known where it was it might not have been on a rock in the first place.

 

[Blue Sunray]

We had the same a couple of weeks ago on the s coast in VERY poor visibility (why on earth were they doing live firing in such?

Quite possibly because wars don't stop for bad weather (standfast our crustacean brethren).

 

[Irish Rover]

I generally know where I am but I can’t see the coordinates on my plotter without my glasses and I can’t see the wheel never mind the bow with my glasses on. I’m 100% sure I wouldn’t be able to find my glasses in an emergency so if someone asks me for the numbers the answer will be I pushed the red button on the DSC yoke. If I hear a MD or PP broadcast which gives coordinates only there’s no way I’m going to find my glasses on time to write it down and if I do it will be at the expense of keeping a proper lookout. Just bloody tell us where it’s at skipper.

 

[prv]

Quite possibly because wars don't stop for bad weather (standfast our crustacean brethren).

And more significantly that the range was booked months ago and the admin effort involved in rescheduling the exercise doesn’t bear thinking about

Pete

 

[prv]

To be fair, how many of us don't have instant access to latitude and longitude at all times?

Well, apparently some people don’t, because they make distress calls saying things like “I’m two cables southeast of Gilkicker, I have a rope round the prop and rudder and I’m drifting rapidly towards the shore”.

The two most useful things the coastguard could have done at that point would have been to remind him that he probably had an anchor, and to try to arrange an urgent tow. Harassing him instead for a lat and long was no use to anybody, especially since the one he did eventually waste the time to provide actually worked out somewhere in Gosport town centre.

Pete

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I often have no idea where I am lat and long. I'm sailing the Bristol Channel or Severn Sea as my ancestors did, passing island x, rock y on my way somewhere. Its called pilotage. Like others I wear glasses to read and would need to get them to read my GPS or to plot some other boats lat long on my paper charts. If you tell me a boat is in distress a mile south of known headland I can soon tell if I could assist a panpan or give sighting reports to CG. If I get lat and long on radio I need to find pen (and glasses) hurriedly to write it down. The present CG practice is unsatisfactory and as a safety engineer I judge it as falling short of ASAP standards.

 

[Giblets]

Well, apparently some people don’t, because they make distress calls saying things like “I’m two cables southeast of Gilkicker, I have a rope round the prop and rudder and I’m drifting rapidly towards the shore”.

Which probably means an awful lot to the operator in Aberdeen where the call could be being handled from.

 

[Blue Sunray]

And more significantly that the range was booked months ago and the admin effort involved in rescheduling the exercise doesn’t bear thinking about

Pete

Fair one.