scotty123
Well-known member
There is more than one. You are talking in riddles. Dunno why.
I could tell you, but I would be breaking GDPR regs.
Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?
- Thread starter dunedin
- Start date
I could tell you, but I would be breaking GDPR regs.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
It's not a poor argument. I investigate loss events: non productive time, breakdown, incidents on drilling rigs. In incidents where human error is a cause, training is nearly always in place but ineffective at verifying that the individual actually ended up competent to do the job. In a few cases the competency failed to an extent that people died.
There are good examples of loss free drilling rigs where the crews are demonstrably competent and the opposite as well. I would suggest that a reasonable comparison to make the point is Volvo Ocean Race: full time, professional, trained, verified as competent, experienced, well funded; compared to Clipper Ventures which I assume are not managed exactly like a Volvo crew. Two different levels of intensity where competency on one will be a lot more assured.
Having said that, my perception of CV is that they have a system in place that works but by the nature of the crews amateur status, experience level, the part time training schedule, all suggests a higher probability of loss compared to Volvo. Hence CV must have greater controls in place. In my own industry, we actively monitor what we call short service employees and put extra controls in place to manage them focusing on risk normalisation, particularly when the inexperienced think they have become experienced.
capnsensible
Well-known member
More riddles. What is a GDPR reg? What are you trying to hide?
capnsensible
Well-known member
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
No idea what you are talking about. Why don't you discuss my points and give an argument to reject them instead of telling me not to participate?
capnsensible
Well-known member
Im clearly not telling you anything of the sort.
Im trained to get straight to the point. That means saying that no matter how much you tell/show people how to do things, people sometimes cock up. Simple.......but sometimes sad.
scotty123
Well-known member
Nothing, thought you were computer literate, but as your not, explained here.
Its a EU thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation
Neeves
Well-known member
I don't think there is a suggestion that a man was lost as a result of a lack of training. I am more than happy to believe that the training is first rate. I am also happy to believe the participants know that assimilation of the training will save their lives. I assume the participants know it is not a game - it can be life and death.
I have not read, anywhere, that a man lost his life because he took a risk, forget his training, was complacent, was too old nor that he ignored instructions from the skipper.
Very simple:
His equipment, hook, failed.
No amount of training will overcome that basic flaw.
His hook failed in just the environment in which it is expected to be totally reliable.
I'm not blaming the training, I'm not blaming the skipper, CV, RJK, nor the MAIB et al
But somewhere within the system, of which we are a part (as customers) there was a massive failing.
Argue the toss as much as we like - but it might be you, your wife or granddaughter, next time.
The past, sadly, is past - we cannot undo it
but
We can learn, we can question and stop taking everything and every statement as gospel.
Thinwater applied safety consideration from another 'sport' to this very sorry story. A bit of lateral thinking can be useful.
I know this thread was, possibly, about the politics.
I'd like to think Simon Speirs' death can result in something more positive.
Jonathan
I have not read, anywhere, that a man lost his life because he took a risk, forget his training, was complacent, was too old nor that he ignored instructions from the skipper.
Very simple:
His equipment, hook, failed.
No amount of training will overcome that basic flaw.
His hook failed in just the environment in which it is expected to be totally reliable.
I'm not blaming the training, I'm not blaming the skipper, CV, RJK, nor the MAIB et al
But somewhere within the system, of which we are a part (as customers) there was a massive failing.
Argue the toss as much as we like - but it might be you, your wife or granddaughter, next time.
The past, sadly, is past - we cannot undo it
but
We can learn, we can question and stop taking everything and every statement as gospel.
Thinwater applied safety consideration from another 'sport' to this very sorry story. A bit of lateral thinking can be useful.
I know this thread was, possibly, about the politics.
I'd like to think Simon Speirs' death can result in something more positive.
Jonathan
Kukri
Well-known member
Agree with Neeves.
Neeves
Well-known member
Thanks Minn,
Mention has been made of Spinlock's new hook.
If it is appropriate:
How about those local to Spinlock badgering them to have someone test for PBO (or is it badgering PBO), Vyv? - anyone else like to raise their hand, and maybe get one to Thinwater (if he is keen and has not tested already). GHA has background in this area - and has a questioning mind?
I acknowledge my shortcomings - I have no background, its not my scene, I acknowledge there are much better people. You need to have motivation and knowledge.
It has just been brought to my attention:
'Knowledge is of no value without understanding' - I think Richard Adams - and I have neither knowledge nor understanding.
Jonathan
Mention has been made of Spinlock's new hook.
If it is appropriate:
How about those local to Spinlock badgering them to have someone test for PBO (or is it badgering PBO), Vyv? - anyone else like to raise their hand, and maybe get one to Thinwater (if he is keen and has not tested already). GHA has background in this area - and has a questioning mind?
I acknowledge my shortcomings - I have no background, its not my scene, I acknowledge there are much better people. You need to have motivation and knowledge.
It has just been brought to my attention:
'Knowledge is of no value without understanding' - I think Richard Adams - and I have neither knowledge nor understanding.
Jonathan
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
If someone does something which endangers or even costs their life (not relevant to the latest Clipper death, but directly relevant to the previous two), it is always worth asking whether they had really understood the risks involved. Most of us don't want to kill ourselves, and risky behaviour often arises because of ignorance of the danger rather than capricious dismissal. Training is at the heart of this. It is not enough simply to tell people stuff; you have to check that they are fully aware of the implications.
Absolutely.
Which would not have mattered if he hadn't been overboard at the time, so how he came to be overboard is absolutely essential to preventing future accidents. As the fatal accident on Lion showed, simply having a hook that holds is no guarantee of survival and indeed in that case it is entirely possible that the man would have survived if his hook had failed.
Accidents very, very rarely happen from one simple cause. That's why the MAIB list proximate and underlying causes in their reports. Blaming the victim for not doing what he was told is almost always a cover up for wider failings.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
The hook is a single node in a series of events, some of which started at the design stage. If you want to understand why you are wrong, research Incident Investigation and Safety Engineering. I would have thought that what has been discussed here and presented by both the MAIB and CV demonstrates that it is anything but "very simple".
There is a huge amount of interaction between design, commissioning, training, competency, systems of work, procedures and management of change, that make an activity's risk so called ALARP (as low as reasonably practical). Both the MAIB and CV realise that and have tried to address the complexities and learn.
The safety line hook is easy to fix.
lw395
Well-known member
Concept stage more like.
I have a mate who works rigs in the North Sea.
His comment was along the lines of 'first thing is to put some proper railings around the work area, then we ain't going out there until you can keep it level'.'Then it's one hand for me and one for the ship'.
The concept of middle aged people manhandling big sails on a fast moving yacht in big weather is flawed.
lw395
Well-known member
Except all the touted alternatives don't seem to carry the legally required ENxxx marking...?
Resolution
Well-known member
Pedant's note: GDPR stands for General data Protection Regulations. Your use of "regs" is superfluous repetition and I fine you a virtual pint.
thinwater
Well-known member
Spinlock's new hook is the Kong Tango, is it not? These are UIAA type K hooks and were tested in the PS article. Very good. They have been in use on many boats for more than a decade. I switched to them about that long ago (different tether brand, Kong hooks).
There is another thing that puzzles me, I was preparing an article on the topic, but another writer beat me to it (Ralph at PS, former US Navy Academy guy and very experienced).
Speirs was overboard for 12 minutes before the hook finally released. They kept trying to pass him a clip. A rock climber would NEVER faff around doing that. You would throw a prusik around the webbing heading to the harness and haul on that. Obvious. And obviously the man in the water is in no condition to help and you should not expect him to. You would have glanced at the anchor and realized it was failing. It should be drilled to secure the tether and haul using that. Easy. How do you think crevasse rescue is done?
But they don't field train tethered MOB recovery, just chalk talk it. And Clipper is by no means the only one guilty of that. I doubt anyone drills it, even though quite a few have dies that way.
I would not assign specific guilt to Clipper for this blunder, like the Spinlock clip. However, it is MAIB's job to identify risk and point to solutions. IMO, they missed two:
* Tethered MOB recovery needed to be drilled. Current recovery methods and habits don't work.
* Make a clear, plain statment that the ISO clip standard is wholly insufficient and that a better standard must be developed, perhaps using UIAA 121 in the interim, and then developing something new if need be.
There is another thing that puzzles me, I was preparing an article on the topic, but another writer beat me to it (Ralph at PS, former US Navy Academy guy and very experienced).
Speirs was overboard for 12 minutes before the hook finally released. They kept trying to pass him a clip. A rock climber would NEVER faff around doing that. You would throw a prusik around the webbing heading to the harness and haul on that. Obvious. And obviously the man in the water is in no condition to help and you should not expect him to. You would have glanced at the anchor and realized it was failing. It should be drilled to secure the tether and haul using that. Easy. How do you think crevasse rescue is done?
But they don't field train tethered MOB recovery, just chalk talk it. And Clipper is by no means the only one guilty of that. I doubt anyone drills it, even though quite a few have dies that way.
I would not assign specific guilt to Clipper for this blunder, like the Spinlock clip. However, it is MAIB's job to identify risk and point to solutions. IMO, they missed two:
* Tethered MOB recovery needed to be drilled. Current recovery methods and habits don't work.
* Make a clear, plain statment that the ISO clip standard is wholly insufficient and that a better standard must be developed, perhaps using UIAA 121 in the interim, and then developing something new if need be.
Seajet
...
+1, or young inexperienced people either, even if they feel bionic and immortal as I did in those days.
A bit of advice from my ym instructor I'll always treasure - " never be tempted to buy a classic boat whose design means no guardrails "
I love traditional boats and history but I cringe when I see photo's of J Class etc heeled at hull speed and people standing around.
The safety of the crew comes down to the skipper, pro's are under huge pressure to sail in any weather, both from the owners and inexperienced students ' so what if it's a Force 9, I paid £ and my annual leave to go sailing. '
If the skipper has doubts about safety kit, conditions or training they should refuse to set out - it's not exactly £ squillions a year pay and I always thought it poor form to return with less crew than one started with.
Last edited:
scotty123
Well-known member
Surely the buck stops with Spinlock, their gear failed.
scotty123
Well-known member
I was try to explain it to a simple soul, who was deficient in his knowledge of the term.
scotty123
Well-known member
Surely an A 22 doesn't have handrails, the loss of speed at warp drive wouldn't allow it.
