Clam boat capsize - Ardnamurchan

[Doghousekeeper]

Tell you what guys - why don't you just ask those wives, girlfriends, children, lovers, friends of all those who died when they weren't wearing a lifejacket if they wish that they had been wearing them?

And if you're fortunate enough to have people who love you and would like you to take care of yourself while you're out in your boats - ask them what they'd like you to do

And by the way, toad of whatever - you'd be well advised to check some statistics.

That's all from me, I think I've wound you up enough for now.

Good night

 

[Searush]

Absolutely. They must be kept in harbour and prevented from going to sea at all costs as they are obviously quite unable to make such safety decisions on their own. Any person who ventures out to sea without wearing a full survival suit, lifejacket with crotch strap and spray mask, harness gloves and boots is a risk that should not be allowed. We must have a new government advisory issued at least on this.

You forgot the hard hat (& wooly vest - in case you catch a cold) oh & the safety goggles.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

So that would include the coastguard and the RNLI? Unless of course you think their "Useless unless worn" campaign on actually wearing lifejackets (as all lifeboat crew do) instead of hiding them in a locker somewhere - assuming that they are even on board - is a waste of time and money??

I'm glad you mentioned that. Look to your right. The RNLI advert features nothing but a life jacket. No mention whatsoever of any other kind of safety kit.

Then you get on a lifeboat and the first thing that meets your eyes are jackstays of 10mm thick steel cable!!!

The money spent on the 'useless unless worn' campaign could be far better spent on a more intelligent and considered approach to safety on boats.

 

[David_Jersey]

That's all from me, I think I've wound you up enough for now.

Good night

Bye.

(Don't forget to wear your lifejacket................to bed )

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Tell you what guys - why don't you just ask those wives, girlfriends, children, lovers, friends of all those who died when they weren't wearing a lifejacket if they wish that they had been wearing them?

Why don't we ask the family of the girl who was trapped under a RIB in Scotland if they wish she hadn't been wearing hers?

The fact is most of us want to be as safe as possible and have to decide for ourselves the best way to accomplish that. There are no simple rules.

It's also fact that some people want to take risks. (In fact we all have to.) People climb Everest with a 1 in 8 chance of carking it. I respect that. If someone else gets equal pleasure from going to sea with no safety kit whatsoever, then good luck to him too. I bet he's got a far better chance than the guy going up Everest.

I bet few of us do anything as dangerous as using UK roads (1 in 200 of us die on UK roads) certainly I don't.

And by the way, toad of whatever - you'd be well advised to check some statistics.

I love statistics. Care to be more specific?

 

[puddock]

Forgive me if I am wrong but wasn't this originally an informative thread highlighting the fact that 3 lives have been tragically lost?
I think there are quite a few people out there who like the sound of their own voices too much (metaphorically speaking) and seem to be of the opinion that because they do or don't do something, then everyone else should also do/ not do it.
I wonder how many of these EXPERTS have worked the deck of a working boat? ( I am talking hard manual labour).
The vast majority of the folks I have met through sailing have been very sensible people, who seemed perfectly capable of making a decision concerning their personal safety without having to be TOLD what they should be doing, for example, to wear/ not wear a lifejacket.
Personally, mine is always on. If you TOLD me to take it off - I would tell you to F&$% O^^ !
If you TOLD me to put it on, I would tell you to F&$% O^^! (Unless I were on your boat, in which case, you are the skipper and what you say goes...).
OK, my rant is over.

 

[Robin]

So that would include the coastguard and the RNLI? Unless of course you think their "Useless unless worn" campaign on actually wearing lifejackets (as all lifeboat crew do) instead of hiding them in a locker somewhere - assuming that they are even on board - is a waste of time and money??

Or perhaps it was just a typo and you really meant "a need to tell other people how to save their lives"

I know a number of RNLI crew who do not wear lifejackets routinely when on their own boats.

This is how the French lifeboat crew were dressed when we were towed in last year from Le Raz De Sein, no wind at all but a big swell that we were surfing down (hitting 14 kts) under tow. Several others had just tank tops and even wore clogs.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I think there are quite a few people out there who like the sound of their own voices too much (metaphorically speaking) and seem to be of the opinion that because they do or don't do something, then everyone else should also do/ not do it.

I have to plead guilty to loving the sound of my own voice.

I do have a question though. It's pretty clear that some people are saying that everyone should wear a lifejacket on boats. However, who do you think is saying that everyone should not wear a lifejacket? I can't see anyone saying that.

Hands up. Anyone on this thread saying that 'everyone' should not wear a life jacket???

If you TOLD me to put it on, I would tell you to F&$% O^^!

Puddock. WEAR SUNSCREEN!!!!

 

[claymore]

Hmm,
I'm sorry for not explaining that in a way that you could understand. I really feel that once lives have been lost any talk of liferafts, epirbs, lifejackets etc really is just a matter of semantics - all rather beside the point in the face of this tragedy. Don't you agree?
I do hope that now makes better sense to you. Apologies once more for an obvious lack of initial clarity in my post

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Hmm,
I'm sorry for not explaining that in a way that you could understand. I really feel that once lives have been lost any talk of liferafts, epirbs, lifejackets etc really is just a matter of semantics - all rather beside the point in the face of this tragedy. Don't you agree?
I do hope that now makes better sense to you. Apologies once more for an obvious lack of initial clarity in my post

FWIW I thought your point was pretty clear - IMHO it was one of the better posts in this thread.

 

[Doghousekeeper]

Perhaps some posters here need to steer clear of Ireland, where the regulations for pleasure boaters include:

There must be suitable PFDs for everyone on board any boat.

A suitable PFD must be worn in the following situations;

By anyone on board an open boat that is under 7 meters in length.
By anyone on deck on a boat that is under 7 meters length.
By anyone under the age of 16 on board an open boat or on deck
of any other type of boat.
By anyone being towed in another boat or on any other device
(skis, donuts etc.)
By anyone on a personal watercraft (jet ski)
Except when
Tied up alongside or made fast to an anchor, marina, pier or
mooring.
Immediately prior to, during and after swimming from a boat that is
not moving through the water.
Putting on’ wearing or taking off diving equipment on a boat that is
not moving through the water.

Well done, the Irish


Claymore, thanks for the clarification. I do understand. There is no benefit to this tragedy, but wouldn't it be nice if the number of tragedies like this could be reduced.

 

[claymore]

"but wouldn't it be nice if the number of tragedies like this could be reduced."

Indeed it would - but now we move from semantics to fairy tales I fear

Not quite got the hang of posting quotes on this much improved website!

 

[Doghousekeeper]

My last post on this tonight.

This is a fairy tale I want to believe in - the wearing of lifejackets is an increasing trend, and I really do want to see that trend continue and see more people survive these terrible accidents.

(To put that in context, I spent 30 years as a lifeboatman dealing with the aftermath of many accidents with both fatalities and survivors - and I know very very clearly which I prefer)

 

[LONG_KEELER]

You really haven't the capacity to think this through have you?

Fixed rules hardly ever work, and with regard to safety they can be lethal.

What if the fisherman is in a Dinghy? Can he wear a buoyancy aid or does it have to be a life jacket? If not what if he gets in a fast sailing dinghy? Can he wear a buoyancy aid then or does it still have to be a life jacket? What if after an hour of fishing off the bank wearing his life jacket he fancies a swim. Should he take his life jacket off to swim or keep it on? Supposing I'm fishing off my yacht wearing a lifejacket with the engine going towing a lure. A bag becomes tangled round the prop and I need to dive down to clear it. (This has happened to me.) Can I dive in without a life jacket or do I need to keep it on? When I climb out wet in my trunks do I need to put my life jacket back on straight away? Do I need to put it back on if I plan to go for a swim again in 30 minutes? What if I fall in freezing water with a LJ on. There's no ladder and I need to take my lifejacket off to climb out onto the nearest pontoon. Can I take it off to get out quicker or is it safer to stay in the water with the LJ on?

I think the lifejacket propaganda is aimed at people like you who can't think for themselves. So in your case it is working.

The average person is a bit more switched on than that and needs to apply some thought and be a bit more flexible to be as safe as possible at all times.

Do you really have to be so personal, rude and obnoxious ?

Why can't you respond to another human being in a reasonable way ?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

So in Ireland someone legally sails his 10m Irish boat without a PFD on in Late January.

Without warning the boat sinks and he ends up in the water still without his PFD. The good news is his Liferaft has bobbed up next to him.

His liferaft is under 7m.

At this point it is illegal for him to climb out of the freezing water into the liferaft.

"Well done, the Irish"

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Do you really have to be so personal, rude and obnoxious ?

Why can't you respond to another human being in a reasonable way ?

Fair point, I've removed the personal, rude and obnoxious bits from the post. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Searush]

Perhaps some posters here need to steer clear of Ireland, where the regulations for pleasure boaters include:

There must be suitable PFDs for everyone on board any boat.

A suitable PFD must be worn in the following situations;
(cut)
Except when
�� Immediately prior to, during and after swimming from a boat that is
not moving through the water.
(cut)

Thank heavans for that, at least I can still swim off the boat at anchor & don't actually have to wear any floatation device on my boat as it is 10m. But irritating that I will be required to wear one when going ashore in a flat calm, sheltered harbour. I am then obliged to carry it wherever I go or leave it in the dinghy to be nicked, so I can't get back aboard legally (unless I swim I suppose). Do you see the sillyness of fixed prescriptive rules yet?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Do you see the sillyness of fixed prescriptive rules yet?

I just love the idea that you're allowed to take your PFD off to swim!

Another scenario.

In a 10m boat crewed by a swimmers all the PFDs are kept in the forepeak with the flarepack. The dinghy is tied to the pushpit. A fire breaks out in the forepeak, the flarepack takes out the PFDs. The boat is about to sink.

At this point they can't legally step into the dinghy to save themselves.

 

[boomerangben]

Bravo Doghousekeeper,

Also pulled a few dead bodies who might have got home for want of a lifejacket. Also been involved with length searches where no body found at all. Again, maybe a lifejacket may have prevented such tragedy.

Of course we are all intelligent people who have read up various documents on sea survival, tried to swim in full oilies without life jackets in a force 4 (or indeed in calm water) and we are all confident our crew could effect a MOB drill (including recovering a 100kg deadweight) without the skipper within about 10 minutes.

I for one can't see what is wrong with wearing a lifejacket. I do every day at work.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I for one can't see what is wrong with wearing a lifejacket.

Ahh, good to see the straw man fallicy employed.