Chinese Hybrid wind,solar and invertor units

[Abestea]

I have recently bought a Chinese heater and will be having some fun installing it over the next few months for the new season. However when I saw the videos stating that there is a 9 amp draw from the battery it has made me think that I might be a bit deficient in the battery recharge department.

The two batteries only recharge off the engine and I don't have the ability to plug in shore power and recharge via that. Only solution at the moment is to carry a battery charger on board and manually charge when low. Bit of a faff!

Now as it seems to never stop being windy here apart from when I'm between Toward and Kip or in the Kyles at Burnt Isles. So I was thinking of a wee wind turbine buzzing away keeping the batteries sweet.

Now I searched online and saw the Rutland ones and thought that they would do the trick, but then I noticed these Chinese combo units with wind, solar and invertor plus it has a controller to connect to the battery.

I am wondering if anyone else has tried this. I thought I would ask first but I am really tempted as I also have an area in the garden that needs power.

 

[fredrussell]

Link?

 

[pcatterall]

I have recently bought a Chinese heater and will be having some fun installing it over the next few months for the new season. However when I saw the videos stating that there is a 9 amp draw from the battery it has made me think that I might be a bit deficient in the battery recharge department.

The two batteries only recharge off the engine and I don't have the ability to plug in shore power and recharge via that. Only solution at the moment is to carry a battery charger on board and manually charge when low. Bit of a faff!

Now as it seems to never stop being windy here apart from when I'm between Toward and Kip or in the Kyles at Burnt Isles. So I was thinking of a wee wind turbine buzzing away keeping the batteries sweet.

Now I searched online and saw the Rutland ones and thought that they would do the trick, but then I noticed these Chinese combo units with wind, solar and invertor plus it has a controller to connect to the battery.

I am wondering if anyone else has tried this. I thought I would ask first but I am really tempted as I also have an area in the garden that needs power.

The heater draw is probably only 9 amps on start up while the glow pin is on. ( about 2 minutes!) it will then drop to 2 amps or less. battery requirement depend partly on how long you 'stay away from shore power' and how long your boat is moored between days spent sailing.
If you only use your yacht at weekends say, then a small solar or wind charger can give you a full battery which may last you over a weekends sail.
I will look for the 'combo unit' that you mention.

 

[Mistroma]

I have recently bought a Chinese heater and will be having some fun installing it over the next few months for the new season. However when I saw the videos stating that there is a 9 amp draw from the battery it has made me think that I might be a bit deficient in the battery recharge department.

The two batteries only recharge off the engine and I don't have the ability to plug in shore power and recharge via that. Only solution at the moment is to carry a battery charger on board and manually charge when low. Bit of a faff!

Now as it seems to never stop being windy here apart from when I'm between Toward and Kip or in the Kyles at Burnt Isles. So I was thinking of a wee wind turbine buzzing away keeping the batteries sweet.

Now I searched online and saw the Rutland ones and thought that they would do the trick, but then I noticed these Chinese combo units with wind, solar and invertor plus it has a controller to connect to the battery.

I am wondering if anyone else has tried this. I thought I would ask first but I am really tempted as I also have an area in the garden that needs power.

Focus your attention and cash on solar rather than wind if you are talking about the summer months. A small wind-gen will keep your boat batteries topped up when you aren't using the boat but so will solar at a fraction of the cost.

If your heater is similar to Eber, Webasto etc. the current will be high at startup and fall to a few amps once it has fired up. It's unlikely to be 9A continous unless it is a very different type of heater.

A Rutland 914 might be able to keep up with the heater requirements of under 2A at night in moderate conditions. You will find that there are quite a few nights at anchor with almost zero output. I would still put money into solar before a wind-gen.

 

[Stemar]

+1 for solar rather than wind. One big advantage of solar is that it's silent, even when it's working its socks off. If a wind generator is silent, it isn't doing anything!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Focus your attention and cash on solar rather than wind if you are talking about the summer months. A small wind-gen will keep your boat batteries topped up when you aren't using the boat but so will solar at a fraction of the cost.

If your heater is similar to Eber, Webasto etc. the current will be high at startup and fall to a few amps once it has fired up. It's unlikely to be 9A continous unless it is a very different type of heater.

A Rutland 914 might be able to keep up with the heater requirements of under 2A at night in moderate conditions. You will find that there are quite a few nights at anchor with almost zero output. I would still put money into solar before a wind-gen.

It's worth noting that Rutland generators don't START to produce power until the wind-speed exceeds about 15 knots. It's surprising how often the wind is less than that. I had a 913, and although it would keep the batteries topped up, it only produced an amp or two under most normal conditions.

 

[lw395]

There are plenty of wind generators around that start working around 2 or 3 m/s, roughly 4/5/6 knots of breeze. Rated power around 12m/s which is F6 or something, so you'll rarely get the nominal power. Also bear in mind that what we call F4 is 11 to 16 knots, but that's measured 10m above a clear expanse of sea or ground. F4 on your mooring, 10ft above sea level might be more like 6 knots?
I have a mate who specs these things for remote sites, compared with 'solar on a good day' they don't produce all that much, but when it's dark and windy, you have to grateful for what you can get. There's a lot of variables in the cost/benefit, generalisations are of limited value. But right now, one of my mate's sites is ticking over on 100W out of a so-called 700W wind generator, batteries float charging, all is well....

 

[Abestea]

There are plenty of wind generators around that start working around 2 or 3 m/s, roughly 4/5/6 knots of breeze. Rated power around 12m/s which is F6 or something, so you'll rarely get the nominal power. Also bear in mind that what we call F4 is 11 to 16 knots, but that's measured 10m above a clear expanse of sea or ground. F4 on your mooring, 10ft above sea level might be more like 6 knots?
I have a mate who specs these things for remote sites, compared with 'solar on a good day' they don't produce all that much, but when it's dark and windy, you have to grateful for what you can get. There's a lot of variables in the cost/benefit, generalisations are of limited value. But right now, one of my mate's sites is ticking over on 100W out of a so-called 700W wind generator, batteries float charging, all is well....

Yes, this is my concern about wind.

I live at the highest point between Glasgow and Edinburgh, it is so high that I can see Arran and the Cowal peninsular from my garden and it is a windy spot!

This sometimes makes me think it's windier that it is at the boat. Even though it's Scotland, solar might be better.

 

[William_H]

A friend bought a Chinese wind gen for his remote property. The very impressive "regulator" in a nice finned ali box simply contained 6 diodes for rectification of the 3 phase output. Not much actual charge into a battery with ordinary winds. It finally dismantled itself in strong winds. So not a good recommendation. ol'will

 

[AntarcticPilot]

There are plenty of wind generators around that start working around 2 or 3 m/s, roughly 4/5/6 knots of breeze. Rated power around 12m/s which is F6 or something, so you'll rarely get the nominal power. Also bear in mind that what we call F4 is 11 to 16 knots, but that's measured 10m above a clear expanse of sea or ground. F4 on your mooring, 10ft above sea level might be more like 6 knots?
I have a mate who specs these things for remote sites, compared with 'solar on a good day' they don't produce all that much, but when it's dark and windy, you have to grateful for what you can get. There's a lot of variables in the cost/benefit, generalisations are of limited value. But right now, one of my mate's sites is ticking over on 100W out of a so-called 700W wind generator, batteries float charging, all is well....

Yes, they are used to power unmanned remote observatories in Antarctica. However, this is in locations where there is no sun for months on end and the wind is consistent and high (15 knots would be a calm day!). In fact, they are down-rated by reducing the number of blades on the rotor for this application. They are perfect for this type of application, but unfortunately we choose moorings etc. with shelter in mind...

 

[Mistroma]

Yes, this is my concern about wind.

I live at the highest point between Glasgow and Edinburgh, it is so high that I can see Arran and the Cowal peninsular from my garden and it is a windy spot!

This sometimes makes me think it's windier that it is at the boat. Even though it's Scotland, solar might be better.

I would say solar will be better, not might. My daily average in a Scottish summer was about 10Ah per day. It was 7-10Ah per day in France, Spain and Italy. I remember specific days where output was high (e.g. 140Ah in one day in the Rias) but there are countless days with virtually zero output. I have a Rutland 913 with HRDi regulator. Not difficult to get output from solar around 5-8 times a wind gen as that doesn't require huge panels. Completely different in winter but few people leave a wind-gen running in a Scottish winter, I've seen a few destroyed by high wind.

 

[jiris]

There are plenty of wind generators around that start working around 2 or 3 m/s, roughly 4/5/6 knots of breeze. .....................................

That's true. There are some "dirty tricks" how to make the generator reach the voltage required for charging at really low revs. No dirty trick however can make the generator deliver higher POWER than the airflow over its swept area can deliver. We would be getting in the "free power" region. So, yes, the charging will start early, but the current will be ridiculously low. As these "sophisticated" generators are poison expensive, it is worth doing some maths before investing in one.

 

[lw395]

That's true. There are some "dirty tricks" how to make the generator reach the voltage required for charging at really low revs. No dirty trick however can make the generator deliver higher POWER than the airflow over its swept area can deliver. We would be getting in the "free power" region. So, yes, the charging will start early, but the current will be ridiculously low. As these "sophisticated" generators are poison expensive, it is worth doing some maths before investing in one.

In a professional situation, it may be very valuable to have even a couple of watts which you can't get from solar or in case the solar fails or something.
It's perhaps less about cost per watt-hr and more about raising the % of time the site can keep working from 90-odd% to 1% more, or something.
Sometimes all you want is for the site to be able to SMS its status back to base, otherwise you have to send a bloke out. That soon pays for a little windmill.

But you can get a notionally 700W windgen for a couple of hundred quid. That might be 700W in 20knots, wind power goes with the cube of speed, so 88W in 10knots, maybe less than 11W at 5knots. Maybe not a good solution for a boat, but like a lot of this cheap stuff, hundreds of thousands of them are doing real work somewhere in the world.

 

[doug748]

.......

I am wondering if anyone else has tried this. I thought I would ask first but I am really tempted as I also have an area in the garden that needs power.

Afraid I have not tried it but I do have a wind generator, which I have recently replaced with a small solar panel for use on a pontoon mooring.
The windgen was poor in a marina.
The solar panel is not so hot on a swinging mooring.

So on the face of it a combined effort would be good at c £300. My doubts are that the windgens looks like those horrendous things that make a great row at most wind speeds. The sort of thing that you need to get upwind of in anchorages. Also, I would worry about spares, broken panels are just dumped but t is nice to get extended life from mechanical stuff.

Sounds like it will have a good old test in your garden, if you go for it, let us know how it performs long term.
An alternative might be to go for an used Aerogen, which are both quiet and robust, and put together your own system.

 

[simonfraser]

Our wind turbine does not generate any wind, what am i doing wrong ?

 

[William_H]

I think although not proven that the answer to wind gen problems is to have an MPPT regulator. (as used for solar) Actually more critical than with solar.
A wind gen produces voltage directly proportional to wind speed. A voltage which is dragged down by current flow. (internal resistance) But our batteries require a voltage of about 14v to charge them. So a wind speed less than that which will produce 14v gives us no charge. Any more wind speed means the voltage is effectively limited by the current flow and losses in the generator so no problem. If we have a gen with lots of turns on windings then we produce more voltage at lower wind speed but at the expense of more losses at higher current so less current capability. I think our salesmen will be quoting max power at a decent wind at the voltage produced less losses. In other words our generator will have a maximum power capability point at a voltage which may not suit us.
An MPPT regulator takes whatever voltage it gets, draws current from it to determine the max power point then transforms this power (voltage and current) to that required for battery charging. (and in the process if there is enough power and battery becomes charged will setup a stepped charging regime)
I have not seen MPPT solar regulators promoted for wind power but seems to me the best answer. Am I wrong? ol'will

 

[jiris]

I think although not proven that the answer to wind gen problems is to have an MPPT regulator. (as used for solar) Actually more critical than with solar.
A wind gen produces voltage directly proportional to wind speed. A voltage which is dragged down by current flow. (internal resistance) But our batteries require a voltage of about 14v to charge them. So a wind speed less than that which will produce 14v gives us no charge. Any more wind speed means the voltage is effectively limited by the current flow and losses in the generator so no problem. If we have a gen with lots of turns on windings then we produce more voltage at lower wind speed but at the expense of more losses at higher current so less current capability. I think our salesmen will be quoting max power at a decent wind at the voltage produced less losses. In other words our generator will have a maximum power capability point at a voltage which may not suit us.
An MPPT regulator takes whatever voltage it gets, draws current from it to determine the max power point then transforms this power (voltage and current) to that required for battery charging. (and in the process if there is enough power and battery becomes charged will setup a stepped charging regime)
I have not seen MPPT solar regulators promoted for wind power but seems to me the best answer. Am I wrong? ol'will

No, you are not, it just gets more complex that this. A fairly comprehensive analysis here:
Low Speed Wind Turbine Design | IntechOpen

 

[Mistroma]

No, you are not, it just gets more complex that this. A fairly comprehensive analysis here:
Low Speed Wind Turbine Design | IntechOpen

You are quite correct. The underlying problems are the lack of energy on an average day, the theoretical limit on how much you can extract and low efficiency of small wind-generators.

I bought my Rutland many years ago when solar panels were more expensive and I only needed to top the batteries up on a mooring. I didn't bother doing any calculations until a few year later.

It is pretty obvious when you do the math that solar is going to be better in the summer months. Output is very low in winter (though a complex tracking system improves it).

I remember doing some basic calculations regarding a wind-gen on my house and think it needed to be about 25-35 times the diameter of a Rutland 913 to be useful. Pretty much a non-starter. I must have a look at the article in your link.

 

[William_H]

Thank you for the link regarding turbine design. We note that at one stage they used a range of load resistors to measure power. So there is an optimum load resistance for each turbine design and wind speed. My argument is that we are stuck with turbines available on the one hand and the very non linear requirements of battery charging. ie the battery will take nothing until the charge voltage exceeds the battery voltage then above that will take a lot of current for little increase in charge voltage. To the point that current is limited by the capability of the generator. Anyway all good stuff but most people have found solar more attractive for battey charging. ol'will