Check your seacocks!

[Daydream believer]

Does anybody routinely replace the seacocks on their boat every five years?

I replaced the one to the heads outlet at 5 years because I did what I do every year- go round & tap them all & give a good heave on the seacock, then make sure the valve operates freely, by opening & closing them quite a few times. It was actually the elbow after the stopcock that disintegrated so I could always have shut the valve in emergency- If I had been on board & aware of the issue. In any event I replaced the whole assembly.

I replaced it with DZR. I suspect that all the others fitted by Hanse are DZR. Forumites are talking about brass but i suspect that they will find that the manufacturers have actually fitted DZR & they are talking b..x about brass being used wide scale. True the odd one may slip through- as my one did - but it only needs testing annually. Mine appear fine at 18 years & I have no immediate plans to change them.
However, when I do they will be True Design. That being said, I will do some research first, as I have seen some feedback of problems with True Design. But that may be hearsay, so I will hold on that one.

 

[Forty_Two]

Does anybody routinely replace the seacocks on their boat every five years?

Absolutely not. But then Grand Banks used bronze originally when my boat was built in 1969. I have replaced them over the years since i bought her in 1987 when it seemed appropriate. Such as when a plank was replaced that had a seacock in it & when re--engined in 2000, but absolutely only with bronze. Do it right, do it once ??

Not expecting to have to replace them again.

 

[dombuckley]

Trouble is that on a pre-purchase survey it is unlikely that the seller will agree to the surveyor hitting his seacocks with a mallet to test them (and should one fail on survey - who is paying for it?) put me right off buying a nearly new or new boat.

I hammer-test each seacock on every survey, and I've never had anyone object. On the three occasions that a fitting or seacock has actually cracked or failed, each owner has said "well, thank *** that happened while we were ashore".

All it takes is a sharp tap with a small ballpein hammer, rather than a ruddy great mallet: after all, a surveyor is looking to detect problems, not cause them! You're just testing to see if the metal is softening. Apart from any discolouration, if a skin fitting dents under normal tapping, then it needs to be replaced. Seacocks tend to dezincify from the inner face: tapping will produce a duller sound before any discolouration becomes obvious on the accessible face. The real "problem children" are the hose tail fittings, as they can only be examined after removing the hoses, for which there just isn't enough time during a survey. However, often a simple sharp tug on the hose can reveal a significant defect in the fitting.

On the OP's particular situation. I've never seen a Bavaria with a chromed skin fitting below the waterline: sounds like an installation error, and hopefully a one-off. However, I have seen an increasing incidence of galvanic action affecting skin fittings across all the main manufacturers in recent years, even where the fitting appears to be DZR brass. The recurring story seems to be a boat in a marina, hooked up to the 240 V supply, but with no galvanic isolator installed.

 

[Bobc]

I hammer-test each seacock on every survey, and I've never had anyone object. On the three occasions that a fitting or seacock has actually cracked or failed, each owner has said "well, thank *** that happened while we were ashore".

All it takes is a sharp tap with a small ballpein hammer, rather than a ruddy great mallet: after all, a surveyor is looking to detect problems, not cause them! You're just testing to see if the metal is softening. Apart from any discolouration, if a skin fitting dents under normal tapping, then it needs to be replaced. Seacocks tend to dezincify from the inner face: tapping will produce a duller sound before any discolouration becomes obvious on the accessible face. The real "problem children" are the hose tail fittings, as they can only be examined after removing the hoses, for which there just isn't enough time during a survey. However, often a simple sharp tug on the hose can reveal a significant defect in the fitting.

On the OP's particular situation. I've never seen a Bavaria with a chromed skin fitting below the waterline: sounds like an installation error, and hopefully a one-off. However, I have seen an increasing incidence of galvanic action affecting skin fittings across all the main manufacturers in recent years, even where the fitting appears to be DZR brass. The recurring story seems to be a boat in a marina, hooked up to the 240 V supply, but with no galvanic isolator installed.

Spot on.

 

[[2574]]

lots about this matter in the yachting press a few years back, a surveyor highlighting the matter as I recall. Trouble is that on a pre-purchase survey it is unlikely that the seller will agree to the surveyor hitting his seacocks with a mallet to test them (and should one fail on survey - who is paying for it?) put me right off buying a nearly new or new boat.

I bought a boat autumn 2020 - our surveyor went aboard, tugged on the engine raw water inlet pipe and the hosetail snapped off. Luckily it was an out of the water survey!

 

[doug748]

As RivalRedwing pointed out, YM had quite a campaign about this disgrace but were eventually silenced.

A new 31 footer from one of the big manufacturers (can't recall which boat, the one with the narrow beam, I think) was tested about a year ago and the review made a point of saying it had proper marine seacocks so maybe the tide is turning.

 

[rotrax]

It's not really about meeting five year or any other regulatory requirement, rather about brand reputation. Not suggesting Bavaria are legally bound to do anything here but lots of adverse publicity about crap quality would do them no good at all.

Two of the reasons First Mate and I chose Island Packet for our last two vessels are the fully encapsulated keel and genuine high quality bronze skin fittings and seacocks.

If our current vessel sinks it wont be because the keel fell off or a seacock or skin fitting failed.

 

[pathfinder]

I'm going to change my 40 year old seacocks this winter for trudesign. Some areas are tight for space and I will have to put an elbow between the skin fitting and valve, this seems to be discouraged on the trudesign website for below the waterline installation. How critical is this and will I be seriously compromising safety by doing so?
Any advice much appreciated.

 

[Zing]

Unbelievable contempt for people that Bavaria did this so recently after it had become so clear to be bad practice. Spoiling the ship for a ha’penny of tar. So stupid.

I’m doing mine this year. All were specified as gunmetal (it is just a good brass really). Some are starting to show pink. Not too bad after 20 years. I’ll almost certainly go for bronze. The most resistant and far stronger than plastic and not too expensive. I also don’t trust DZR manufacturers to not slip up in manufacturing. The steps needed to turn cheap brass into DZR require very precise control. DZR is also not as resistant as bronze. It has been known to fail in domestic applications where it is widely used.

 

[geem]

Unbelievable contempt for people that Bavaria did this so recently after it had become so clear to be bad practice. Spoiling the ship for a ha’penny of tar. So stupid.

I’m doing mine this year. All were specified as gunmetal (it is just a good brass really). Some are starting to show pink. Not too bad after 20 years. I’ll almost certainly go for bronze. The most resistant and far stronger than plastic and not too expensive. I also don’t trust DZR manufacturers to not slip up in manufacturing. The steps needed to turn cheap brass into DZR require very precise control. DZR is also not as resistant as bronze. It has been known to fail in domestic applications where it is widely used.

If you are tight for space then Bronze makes sense. I converted where possible over to Marelon valves. They are more substantial than Truedesign and require more space to install them. They are a departure from the conventional skin fitting and separate valve arrangement. The skin fitting and valve effectively makes a single through Hull fitting once installed. They have such a wide base area on the inside of the Hull that they may be hard for some boats to covert over to. Very happy with the ones we installed ten years ago.

 

[Zing]

If you are tight for space then Bronze makes sense. I converted where possible over to Marelon valves. They are more substantial than Truedesign and require more space to install them. They are a departure from the conventional skin fitting and separate valve arrangement. The skin fitting and valve effectively makes a single through Hull fitting once installed. They have such a wide base area on the inside of the Hull that they may be hard for some boats to covert over to. Very happy with the ones we installed ten years ago.

I quite like the Marelon valves. Dead easy to operate, i.e. never seem to jam up like my other DZR valves. Handles do feel flimsy though and there were some handle falling off incidents, which I read about. I don't know if that fault has been fixed though. I have a few fitted onto gunmetal through-hulls, but I will feel better with bronze through-hulls and may well keep the Marelon valves. Best of all is the Groco flanged valve system. I probably won't go for them though. A lot of work to install.

 

[vyv_cox]

Unbelievable contempt for people that Bavaria did this so recently after it had become so clear to be bad practice. Spoiling the ship for a ha’penny of tar. So stupid.

I’m doing mine this year. All were specified as gunmetal (it is just a good brass really). Some are starting to show pink. Not too bad after 20 years. I’ll almost certainly go for bronze. The most resistant and far stronger than plastic and not too expensive. I also don’t trust DZR manufacturers to not slip up in manufacturing. The steps needed to turn cheap brass into DZR require very precise control. DZR is also not as resistant as bronze. It has been known to fail in domestic applications where it is widely used.

Gunmetal is bronze Although there is no actual specification for that name it at one time contained 10% tin. Nowadays it most commonly has lead additions for machinability, with 2% and 4% tin in the most used specs (LG1 and LG2) sometimes known as leaded gunmetal.

 

[vyv_cox]

I replaced the one to the heads outlet at 5 years because I did what I do every year- go round & tap them all & give a good heave on the seacock, then make sure the valve operates freely, by opening & closing them quite a few times. It was actually the elbow after the stopcock that disintegrated so I could always have shut the valve in emergency- If I had been on board & aware of the issue. In any event I replaced the whole assembly.

I replaced it with DZR. I suspect that all the others fitted by Hanse are DZR. Forumites are talking about brass but i suspect that they will find that the manufacturers have actually fitted DZR & they are talking b..x about brass being used wide scale. True the odd one may slip through- as my one did - but it only needs testing annually. Mine appear fine at 18 years & I have no immediate plans to change them.
However, when I do they will be True Design. That being said, I will do some research first, as I have seen some feedback of problems with True Design. But that may be hearsay, so I will hold on that one.

DZR seacock components will always be marked as such and are unmistakeable, either with CR or DZR cast into them. They will not be chromium plated.

Brass will almost always be plated but not inevitably.

I was one of the YM team involved in the seacock saga. There is lots of information on the subject on my website at Brasses and bronzes

The one good thing that came out of the campaign is that DZR skin fittings and hose tails are now available, not previously the case as the plumbing industry did not use them, unlike the valves. Several boat builders switched from brass to DZR as a result of the campaign.

 

[Zing]

Gunmetal is bronze Although there is no actual specification for that name it at one time contained 10% tin. Nowadays it most commonly has lead additions for machinability, with 2% and 4% tin in the most used specs (LG1 and LG2) sometimes known as leaded gunmetal.

It might well be according to some definitions, because of its tin, but gunmetal has a lot of zinc in it and that makes it a brass by many definitions and mine too. Brass i.e. copper and lots of zinc is to be avoided. Call it what you like, but it is still substantial zinc containing metal, with no DZR, so not at all ideal.

 

[vyv_cox]

It might well be according to some definitions, because of its tin, but gunmetal has a lot of zinc in it and that makes it a brass by many definitions and mine too. Brass i.e. copper and lots of zinc is to be avoided. Call it what you like, but it is still substantial zinc containing metal, with no DZR, so not at all ideal.

There is a small amount of zinc in it as a deoxidizer. That does not make it a brass and it will not suffer from dezincification. Bronze is not easy to cast due to the one itable presence of oxygen from the air. Zinc mops this up harmlessly.

Who is defining it as a brass?

 

[Wansworth]

This problem is a direct consequence of the Recreational Craft Directive. Back in the day when this abomination was being discussed and the UK's delegation of DoT civil servants sought some input from the boating industry, the British Marine Federation and the RYA involved themselves at a little-advertised meeting early one mid-week morning at the Earl's Court Boat Show. No representative of the UK buying/owning public was invited.

Wandering around the show early, I saw a little sign and wandered in. This embryo Directive was seen as a 'Trade Matter' so only trade interests were being considered and only 'trade representatives' were invited. The RYA lobbied for and graciously accepted the role of 'Approved Body'..... another little income stream!

I was able to persuade the civil servant leading the team that UK buyers/owners should have some input, and he agreed a form of consultation which saw the Cruising Association have a voice and designer Richard Woods subsequently appointed to an advisory group.

Unfortunately, the influence and interests of the big European boat manufacturers trumped other small voices, and many 'Design Requirements' that were - to users - retrogressive were incorporated. One of these was a requirement to fit 'escape hatches' into the hulls of large multihulls ( where they were already standard and no changes to existing moulds were needed ) but not to smaller multihulls, where a number of deaths by capsize ( mostly French ) had been recorded. Another was the requirement for through-hull fittings to last but 5 years.... this permitted the large boat manufacturers quietly to fit brass plumbing fittings instead of the expensive gunmetal/bronze that was traditional - which of course lasted a lifetime.

Of course, the buying customers were not told. It was several years later that the issue of dissolving seacocks - 'dezincification' - started to be discovered here and there, and it was in this very YBW forum that the dots were joined, owners and insurers' surveyors/claims adjusters woken up, and the small but potentially lethal scandal given the spotlight of publicity. It was several years later that the large American buying public found out about this 'cost saving' - essentially by a contributor here emailing the editors of two of the US' sailing magazines who, in archetypal 'Murricain style, refused to believe there was such a problem 'because we have not heard of it here before'.....

BTW, the DoT civil servant who led the UK team at the Brussels consultations was an electrical engineer, who had presided over the earlier introduction of the Electrical Safety Directive. He should certainly have spotted the issue of 'dezincification'.....

Led by donkeys rings a bell

 

[geem]

I quite like the Marelon valves. Dead easy to operate, i.e. never seem to jam up like my other DZR valves. Handles do feel flimsy though and there were some handle falling off incidents, which I read about. I don't know if that fault has been fixed though. I have a few fitted onto gunmetal through-hulls, but I will feel better with bronze through-hulls and may well keep the Marelon valves. Best of all is the Groco flanged valve system. I probably won't go for them though. A lot of work to install.

Never had a handle problem in ten years on my Marelon valves. I have had handles go rusty on DZR valves. We now have either Marelon or 316 s/s valves. The 316 s/s valves are installed where the Marelon valves don't work for us. This is on the engine inlet where we have a large Kingston cock installed and on both toilet inlet/sink outlet valves where we have a specialy fabricated bronze tee to suit the dual use.

 

[Zing]

There is a small amount of zinc in it as a deoxidizer. That does not make it a brass and it will not suffer from dezincification. Bronze is not easy to cast due to the one itable presence of oxygen from the air. Zinc mops this up harmlessly.

Who is defining it as a brass?

Yes, thanks for your clarification. I think I mixed up gunmetal with admiralty brass, which my dezincified seacocks are made of. They have a lot of zinc.

By the way gunmetal is often referred to as red brass:
Gunmetal (Red Brass) Composition, Properties, Uses, Cost

 

[vyv_cox]

By the way gunmetal is often referred to as red brass:
Gunmetal (Red Brass) Composition, Properties, Uses, Cost

Only by Americans. There is no accounting for their use of language.

 

[Bandit]

It’s good prudent policy if you have metal skin fittings, ball valves and he’s tails to remove them and to inspect them disassembled every 7 years.
It’s a lot of labour to do this and refit part worn components back, it’s more prudent to replace all with all new.

this way if there is a failure and an insurance claim you can demonstrate that you acted reasonably and diligently in your maintenance.
I have seen skin fittings, ball valves and tails on new boats fail before 5 years old that are Brass!!!!!

Don’t mix DZR with nickel plated brass or other alloys, they will react.

Vyv Cox,s website is a good resource for this and anchoring.