changing from coppercoat to antifowling...

[Wife of Lofticus]

We have just spent the weekend coppercoating our boat and have had excellent support from AMC, our frequent phone calls for technical information have been encouraged despite their frequency.
We have been told that coppercoat is NOT an anti-osmosis treatment, so as a belt and braces approach on a very sound dry hull we have applied 2 coats of ME Primer as recommended by AMC.
The application of coppercoat by enthusiastic novices is very interesting. We watched the DVD many times and all our helpers saw it at least once.
We were told to apply 4 coats in very thin layers and if we had any product over to keep on applying layers until it was all used up. We needed to do the port side of the hull on the first day and the s'board the next in order to have enough time to fininsh the job with all the coats in one day.
We found that we applied the second coat a little thicker on the first day which caused a few runs from the weight of the copper but still managed 5 coats with the specified amount of product.
With the experience of the first day, on day 2 we applied 6 coats, all equally thin. We have the same amount of copper on both sides but feel we did a better job with the learning curve from the day before.

We now have to let that cure for 5 days and then re-prop and paint the keel, rudder and patches.

We have taken every precaution to follow instructions to the letter, and now have everything crossed that we are as sucessful as Vyv with our lifetime !

It has been a technical challenge but we felt the rewards outweighed the doubts.
Now it's just a case of watch this space!

 

[Wife of Lofticus]

Erratum !

Lofticus has just read my post and reminded me it was ME Primer S, which apparently is an important distinction.
Also I forgot to say how important the mixer and stirrer is. The copper is heavy, as previous poster mentioned, and the product in the paint tray needed very regular mixing to ensure all the copper was in the epoxy and not sat in the tray.
It felt like every few minutes, especially with a freshly mixed pot.

(Also want to add we had an excellent blasting job from Wetblast)

 

[Elessar]

Thanks for info, but sadly yes to all your questions. It was bought direct from Aquarius Marine Coatings in Romsey, is that the same AMC you talk about?, it was applied by someone they recommended and others, yes the correct amount and more was applied to our hull, after it had been sandblasted.
And in response to help, forget it, as they said, quite similar to your response, that they guarantee the product, but if any of the 3 things you listed were at fault, their product is not too blame! And having had to redo a new rudder ourselves - for which of course we had to buy more product, it hasn't worked either.
And yes I am more than aware of how long the coppercoat SHOULD have lasted - that's why we went down this route.
We had barnacles 3 months after application in Europe. The only thing that I will say is that we have been and are still in the Caribbean, where it HAS NOT WORKED. Maybe our boat should have stayed in English waters!

Aquarius marine coatings are not and have never need based in Romsey.

Thus you do not have CopperCoat, you have a pretender.

If you'd had the real thing you would not be having these problems. I 100% stand by my original reply.

 

[Elessar]

Has anyone else had problems with Coppercoat? We are getting ready to apply anti fouling on our boat. The boat has been scrapped down to the gelcoat and we are interested in applying an osmosis protection and antifouling paint. We have heard that coppercoat will serve both as an osmosis protection and antifouling. Is that everyone else's understanding? Should we apply a couple of layers of osmosis protection as well before doing the Coppercote? Is there any advantage to putting more than 4 layers of Coppercote on???

Melons did NOT have problems with CopperCoat. She has problems with something else coppery. "don't buy a Mercedes they're terrible, my Allegro broke down"

 

[Elessar]

At Portland I am aware of two copper coated yachts who have given up after 1 and 2 seasons, and one applied new antifouling over it and the other blasted off. I'll stick to cheap a/f and scrub off 2 twice year.

Are you really, or are you too falling into the trap of calling anything coppery, Coppercoat?

CopperCoat, the real stuff that is, works and is proven to work.

 

[Elessar]

...Of very little use for protection!

I was castigated, abused, insulted a couple of years back when I ventured to suggest that this coppercoating mularchy was both expensive and useless.

The bloke's run off over the hill with your money, hasn't he? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

The apologies from those concerned are awaited.

Chas

30,000 CopperCoated boats
A few thousand failed pretenders that the unaware blame on CopperCoat
1 CharlesSwallow

I won't insult you Charles, but do think your unsubstantiated belittling of a proven product does you no justice. You were wrong then and are wrong now.

 

[G12]

30,000 CopperCoated boats
A few thousand failed pretenders that the unaware blame on CopperCoat
1 CharlesSwallow

I won't insult you Charles, but do think your unsubstantiated belittling of a proven product does you no justice. You were wrong then and are wrong now.

Dude, relax!

 

[ElJames]

Nice to read that someone else has a problem copper finishes.Mine started 4yrs ago I applied COPPER SHIELD.A simler product to Copper Coat? in the way it is applied ie clean hull off down to gell coat apply 2 coats of epoxy,I used Blakes Gel Protect and not Wests an epoxy of simler quality.After a lot rubbing to put a good key and then washing with sugar soap then copious amounts actone I started to apply COPPER SHIELD the full 4 coat system 2 coats 1 weekend more rubbing down then the final 2 coats the following weekend I wrapped the hull in plastic a sheet in case the weather changed and allowed 2 weeks to dry and harden I moor on the Medway 1st trip down to Brittany on arrival looking around I noticed some of the coating had fell off 1/2 a yard approx unable to see under side
End of season lift out only to find not as much 50% down our friends attached to the hull and about 15% of the coating FELL OFF,contacted COPPER SHIELD said it was not cleaned properley more cleaning rubbing and lots of actone 4 coats reapplied to these areas try again next year August speed dropping 10 kts down due to time Chatam Marina lifted and washed her they informed me that they had not seen a hull so badly infested in years mussels as well as weed speed back to normal
Winter lift this year at Canvey Island Yacht Club again my speed had dropped better this time 14kts down.Barnicles had a great time under there 3to 4 thick
Now time to involve COPPER SHIELD in time there rep appeared unable to say why it it is NOT WORKING took a sample for lab checking no reason found or why about 5 to 10% falls off
Went to the 2011 London Boat show to meet COPPER SHIELD they still had no idea why it is NOT working and offered me 1 pack of a 12 pack system free I have now fitted an Ultra Sonic system so watch this space next year
I do have a friend who has COPPER BOTT applied and it is working perfectly

 

[Elessar]

Dude, relax!

Yep fair point

 

[Elessar]

Nice to read that someone else has a problem copper finishes.Mine started 4yrs ago I applied COPPER SHIELD.A simler product to Copper Coat?

----------------8<----------------

I do have a friend who has COPPER BOTT applied and it is working perfectly

There have been many companies tried to copy CopperCoat over the years, why does it matter if it is a similar product? It didn't work, CopperCoat does.

The names of the products are very confusing, and the fact that people like the OP completely innocently use the wrong name doesn't help.

CopperCoat was originally called CopperBot, it became CopperCoat ages ago, about 15 years ago I think. The product is the same, ie the one that works.

CopperBot 2000 is a different thing. It was one of the attempts at a copy. And I think it was based in Romsey which has relevance to the OP.

 

[Elessar]

COPPER SHIELD said it was not cleaned properley more cleaning rubbing and lots of actone 4 coats reapplied to these areas try again next year

---------------8<

Now time to involve COPPER SHIELD in time there rep appeared unable to say why it it is NOT WORKING took a sample for lab checking no reason found or why about 5 to 10% falls off

The acetone is probably if felt fell off. Did they tell you to use acetone? Shows their lack of knowledge if they did. You risk solvent entrapment and thus poor adhesion.

 

[macd]

+1 with everything Elessar has written and particularly the confusion over similar products. Other than the case mentioned in my previous post and one other where an inappropriate priming system was used, I know of no CopperCoat treatment which has not worked. I personally know of only one Copper Shield application, done in my local yard at home. Like the one El James describes, much of it fell off in a season.

 

[Pasarell]

Aquarius marine coatings are not and have never need based in Romsey.

Thus you do not have CopperCoat, you have a pretender.

If you'd had the real thing you would not be having these problems. I 100% stand by my original reply.

Elessar, I think you will find that West System used to make the epoxy for Coppercoat and distribute the product for them. I could, of course, be thinking of Copperbot which was effectively the same product from the same company / people. As West are based in Romsey it was reasonable for the earlier poster to think that was where the product was made.

 

[Pasarell]

The acetone is probably if felt fell off. Did they tell you to use acetone? Shows their lack of knowledge if they did. You risk solvent entrapment and thus poor adhesion.

Can you explain why cleaning with acetone would cause solvent entrapment please? I am no fan of cleaning with acetone as it can cause many problems if not used properly but in 30 years I've never come across any entrapment of acetone. With such a fast solvent you would have to apply the subsequent coating extraordinarily quickly after cleaning to suffer from solvent entrapment.
I admire your support for the product you sell but please don't mislead people with inaccurate statements such as this.
Coppercoat works most of the time. Most other copper based antifoulings work most of the time. Most conventional antifoulings work most of the time. They ALL suffer from failures some of the time. That is the nature of antifoulings. Copper has become increasingly popular over recent years as the booster biocides used in conventional antifoulings have had to reduce concentration and strength due to legislation, meaning the performance differential between metallic copper and conventional antifoulings has reduced.
Unfortunately the holy grail of an antifouling that works all the time, everywhere, with no environmental or health impact, has not been invented yet.

 

[Elessar]

Can you explain why cleaning with acetone would cause solvent entrapment please? I am no fan of cleaning with acetone as it can cause many problems if not used properly but in 30 years I've never come across any entrapment of acetone. With such a fast solvent you would have to apply the subsequent coating extraordinarily quickly after cleaning to suffer from solvent entrapment.

It causes solvent entrapment because it doesn't evaporate as fast as you think.
If you clean with acetone and wait for it to apparently evaporate, then Coppercoat or use any epoxy, you will get entrapment evidenced by bubbling of the coating.
If you start painting at, say, the bow, the bow will be worse. But the stern, which will have had an hour or so more than the stern, will still show evidence of entrapment.

 

[Elessar]

I admire your support for the product you sell but please don't mislead people with inaccurate statements such as this.

I see more CopperCoated boats in a month than most people see in a lifetime. I share my observations of what I can demonstrate acetone does with others in the hope than it will help stop someone making an expensive mistake.
I wasn't supporting CopperCoat in that post I was explaining why some cheap pretender had fallen off.
And you accuse me of innacuracy and misleading people.
Thanks.

 

[macd]

Coppercoat works most of the time. Most other copper based antifoulings work most of the time. Most conventional antifoulings work most of the time. They ALL suffer from failures some of the time. That is the nature of antifoulings.

Agreed. Many antifouls work pretty much as well as CopperCoat and anyone applying C'Coat expecting it to be a quantum better than a good conventional a'foul is in for a disappointment. But of course that's not the point of the stuff.

As to cleaning with acetone, many epoxy data sheets warn against it. AMC's own surface preparation instructions include the following text: "Under no circumstances clean the hull with any solvents or oil-based products (such as Acetone)."

That doesn't seem hugely ambiguous to me.

 

[Elessar]

Elessar, I think you will find that West System used to make the epoxy for Coppercoat and distribute the product for them. I could, of course, be thinking of Copperbot which was effectively the same product from the same company / people. As West are based in Romsey it was reasonable for the earlier poster to think that was where the product was made.

Wanted to check my facts on this before posting.

West System do not and never have made the epoxy for or distributed CopperCoat.

You are right that CopperBot was the same product as and was in fact the original name for CopperCoat. This wasn't ever made by or distributed by West System either.

West system were involved with CopperBot 2000 which is a different thing.

 

[Elessar]

Agreed. Many antifouls work pretty much as well as CopperCoat and anyone applying C'Coat expecting it to be a quantum better than a good conventional a'foul is in for a disappointment. But of course that's not the point of the stuff.

As to cleaning with acetone, many epoxy data sheets warn against it. AMC's own surface preparation instructions include the following text: "Under no circumstances clean the hull with any solvents or oil-based products (such as Acetone)."

That doesn't seem hugely ambiguous to me.

I agree with every single word you say here.

 

[Sybaris]

Acetone

I got concerned when I read the comments about acetone and I am now totally confused because I had a quick look at my West System instructions. I have always done as they suggest and cleaned with acetone.

Check out this extract from one of their instruction documents.