changing from coppercoat to antifowling...

[Georgio]

When I did an epoxy course with Wessex resins (who make and distribute West) they said that users should avoid using acetone for cleaning surfaces, and if used care should be taken to ensure that it has dried/evaporated completely and no residue is left.

I believe that West used to recommend using acetone but there have been problems over the years so it is no longer suggested unless absolutely necessary.

A clean, dry, well keyed surface (using 40-80grit paper) is best.

we must remember that AMC do not use West but their own type of epoxy that I believe is a little softer and more porus, but I guess similar problems are likely to occur if using acetone for final cleaning before application.

 

[whiteoaks7]

On our hull Coppercoat works well - this year (in Greece) we didn;t even need the pressure hosing. HOWEVER, on the steel keels the story is very different. When the stuff was applied first the company who applied it left off the primer and the keels corroded in a month. They very quickly put right the problem at no cost to me but the Coppercoat has never really been successful on the keels and I have to suspect that his original fault is the cause. At first I bought some Coppercoat copper and resin to patch the rusty bits (expensive) but now I just paint the keels with anti-foul straight over the remaining copper (less expensive). Looks awful but I don't see it too often.

I would still recommend Coppercoat but if I ever need it again I'll do it myself. Oh, btw we are now in our fifth year...

 

[Elessar]

I got concerned when I read the comments about acetone and I am now totally confused because I had a quick look at my West System instructions. I have always done as they suggest and cleaned with acetone.

Check out this extract from one of their instruction documents.

OK fine, I don't use West System so hadnt read their data sheet. The CopperCoat instructions are clear as has been previously mentioned - they say don't use it, so I don't. I've also seen problems when it has been used under CopperCoat. Following the manufacturers instructions is the thing to do.

Edit I see they have now withdrawn the advice, I guess they found problems with it.

 

[Pasarell]

Acetone as a cleaner

As I said in my original post on the subject I have great concerns with using acetone as a cleaner - although solvent entrapment is certainly not one of them. The same concerns occur with any solvent cleaning. The "faster" the solvents the greater the potential for problems and acetone is a pretty fast solvent.

Most people "clean" with solvents, especially a nice cheap one like acetone, by soaking a rag and rubbing it on the surface. As the rag goes onto the surface the solvent quickly dissolves greasy contaminants but very quickly the solvent evaporates from the rag and the greasy contaminants are left in the surface of the rag to be deposited back onto the surface with the next rub. The problem is compounded as usually people scrub at the surface spreading contaminants around. Each fresh application of solvent softens some more contaminant making it easier to spread.

There is an ASTM standard process for solvent cleaning which, in quick form, says clean rags must be used and neatly folded into a series of squares. The rag is soaked with solvent and, starting from one side of the item to be cleaned, wiped once in a single direction over the surface. After one stroke the rag must be turned to a fresh square and wiped once again in the same direction. No surface can be used more than once. When all surfaces are used the rag is discarded. Fresh solvent is applied as required.

Blistering of coatings after cleaning with acetone are almost always due to contaminant residue on the surface and not solvent entrapment. It would be folly to say you could never get solvent entrapment after acetone cleaning but it would be very difficult indeed to make it happen.

 

[Elessar]

As I said in my original post on the subject I have great concerns with using acetone as a cleaner - although solvent entrapment is certainly not one of them. The same concerns occur with any solvent cleaning. The "faster" the solvents the greater the potential for problems and acetone is a pretty fast solvent.

Most people "clean" with solvents, especially a nice cheap one like acetone, by soaking a rag and rubbing it on the surface. As the rag goes onto the surface the solvent quickly dissolves greasy contaminants but very quickly the solvent evaporates from the rag and the greasy contaminants are left in the surface of the rag to be deposited back onto the surface with the next rub. The problem is compounded as usually people scrub at the surface spreading contaminants around. Each fresh application of solvent softens some more contaminant making it easier to spread.

There is an ASTM standard process for solvent cleaning which, in quick form, says clean rags must be used and neatly folded into a series of squares. The rag is soaked with solvent and, starting from one side of the item to be cleaned, wiped once in a single direction over the surface. After one stroke the rag must be turned to a fresh square and wiped once again in the same direction. No surface can be used more than once. When all surfaces are used the rag is discarded. Fresh solvent is applied as required.

Blistering of coatings after cleaning with acetone are almost always due to contaminant residue on the surface and not solvent entrapment. It would be folly to say you could never get solvent entrapment after acetone cleaning but it would be very difficult indeed to make it happen.

Yep I accept this as true.
So you agree I was right to say that aceone cleaning causes blistering. I had just mis identified the cause of the blistering.
The real world solution is the same - don't use acetone. That's all I really need to know.

You still accused me of misleading people with inaccurate statements in order to support a product I sell.
In fact if anything I was defending a competitor product, and even you have said that I was right to say acetone causes blistering.

Thus frankly your accusation of poor intent on my part was rather more misleading than me getting the wrong name for the reason for paint failures don't you think?

That aside, this explanation was useful and informative so thank you.

 

[ElJames]

I think you lost the plot somewhere I applied COPPER SHEILD the statement was for information this product did not work the suppliers dont know why not? and yes it was them who told me to apply acetone after keying the surface to clean the wax that might be still present on the epoxy and no it did not bubble the edges of the patch I was covering, this also did not work and our friends lived on the new patches just like the rest of the COPPER SHEILD

 

[temptress]

30,000 CopperCoated boats
A few thousand failed pretenders that the unaware blame on CopperCoat
1 CharlesSwallow

I won't insult you Charles, but do think your unsubstantiated belittling of a proven product does you no justice. You were wrong then and are wrong now.

Is it a proven product? Read the thread - others like me hve tried it and reverted to somehting else.

So more than one unhappy customer. I tried it and after a few years decided it was a waste of time - reverted back to paint. But there ar elots of satisfied customers - IMO it is not the revolutionary product the marketing claims but it can work for some _ perhaps even most.

 

[mikikeka]

I got coper coat for 6 years on my fast planing boat . It is best protection for fiberglass . But for years I have a problem with slime on a boat which prevent from going on plane . Presume washing removing slime but is need to be done 3 to 4 times per year. I am just planing applying standard antifuling over copercoat . Coper coats so hard even sand paper will hardly scratch them. So osmosis protection is best but for growth is not. So is it posies to apply international antifuling for fast boats directly over clean coppercoat? Cheers from NZ

 

[Sybarite]

After 5 very unsetting years having spent the money on .... coppercoat, we now have no choice but go to anifouling - current cleanup rate of hull is down to 2 weeks!!!
A few years ago when the coppercoat was only 2 yrs old, I asked International about what they would recommend us doing to change to anifouling. Of course they 'couldn't guarantee how their product would work', unless we took the hull back to gel coat, put a primer on and then antifouled. I'd like to know if anyone has had the same misfortune with coppercoat, and whether they have put on their antifouling straight over? Basically there is barely any real copper left as I can see the white expoxy primer that we put on the hull before the coppercoat. Thoughts???

I was speaking a couple of weeks ago to somebody who had copper coated his boat. I asked him what difference did he see?

"The cost!"

 

[tcm]

I think i have a fair bit of Coppercoat experience having mucked about with various copper-based solutions on boats for the best part of 20 years.

Coppercoat is powered copper mixed with a 2-part epoxy which is mixed all together and applied to the hull. It seemed best with a roller. I think you *might* be able to use an airless sprayer but meh, roller seemed nice and low tech and fast enough.

I did mine in Lanzarote in fairtly dry African air conditions. At the time i dd wonder how i would have got on applying the stuff in the uk - damper, cooler and not so conducive to rapis and effective application.

No chemical clean - the surface should be freshly-ground gelcoat. Dry conditions needed - hence Lanzarote.

I did weigh the issues of the copper and does it work perfectly or what? But as one guy said to me - hey Matt - how bad an idea is to apply four or five coats of epoxy to your hull, really? Hm? Rubbish idea? Or actually quite good idea regardless? I think the second.

It’ll be a shock to some to find that several gallons of gelcoat arrive i small pots but it goes off fast. You have one mixer person, one helper, and a fast guy with a roller going round and round the boat and within a few hours (not days) you should have the stuff on even a big boat - this was a 50ft catamaran.

The first coats are thin and meh, not much cop, but the tackiness allows the second coat hopefully within less than an hour, and the third and fourth and perhaps 5th and 6th at the waterline.

So having done the coppercoat i left it a few days to harden off … but it was still not hard enough to effectively rough the surface. Bear in mind that the hull at this point looks as if painted with milk chocolate. Some fairly hefty drips but they will crack of if you mess around with them at this stage. I have heard of someone taking a machine to the slightly-dried gear and ripping it all off! Or other horror stories. For me it was well stuck but not as hard as paint might feel or be at that stage - it’s a lot thicker so you can get hold of lumpy drippy bits.

So for that first year before splash i experimented with applying mild acids cos it is the OXIDE of copper that detracts the barnacles etc not the copper per se. So it needs to be greenish. A rinse with dilute oxalic acid got it turning greenish.

And so I slung it in the water and crosed the Atlantic twice, and back to the same yard (Calero) for a liftout the folliwg year.

This time i knew that what i wanted was to sand down the now-hardened epoxy. It’s a bit grrenish, but in lots of places still dark brown. So got the sander and say 200grit? Nope, 150grit. Nope let’s try 80 grit? Sheet this is tough stuff. Eventually i got one of the yard guys with proper air tools and FORTY grit to make any difference to the surface. But we got it all a little bit gournd down, the surface all hard as hell, and with a bit of oxalic acid , nicely turning green.

And then i pllonked it in the water, sailed it across the Atlantic eight more times and round the world, and it was still fine, bit of patching but hard and solid as ever, i cannot imagine how tough it would be to get it off. I think i would just paint over it i really wanted - but why?

BUT ... i see people having a bad time cos it “doesn’t work” and that seem to depend on very local issues. For example, mine would get barnies IF the hull got some weed on first and THEN the barnies could stick to that. But it was always a load fewer barnies than if ornery antifoul.

I would most certainly do the copppercoat on another boat. But i would nurse it as i did the first year, and make sure it was ground down year two and turned green with mild acid for full effect. And i would apply in warm climate, or in the UK - indoors or with lots of sheeting at the very least...

Btw TCM does not stand for The Copper Maniac, but it could do….

 

[AIDY]

You don't recommend the copper sheets stuck to the hull then TCM

 

[RichardS]

I was speaking a couple of weeks ago to somebody who had copper coated his boat. I asked him what difference did he see?

"The cost!"

I reckon that's a very fair response to your question.

But ask him what difference would he see after 5 years of using conventional antifoul ....... and he'll either say "it was like a jungle down there" ..... or "I applied conventional twice during that period".

Richard

 

[tcm]

Er no, I wouldn’t say that at all. Not at all like a jungle, and miles cheaper than conventional, and when needing any clearing the epoxy is very hard, not soft like paint, and when jet washing it can take the fall force of the jet wash without harming the stuff unlike with normal jet wash the paint comes off bit like if they did that to a front door and then said ooh look your antifoul needs re-doing. I got round the world without needing a proper lift out - just diving/snorkelling a bit, and a tidal dry-out in Fiji for anodes...

 

[tcm]

You don't recommend the copper sheets stuck to the hull then TCM

Ummm tried then and no... or at least, not for big boat doing 20knots hum

 

[AIDY]

Ummm tried then and no... or at least, not for big boat doing 20knots hum

I remember very well... it was nearly as good as the inflatable dinghy in New York live on webcam....

 

[RichardS]

Er no, I wouldn’t say that at all. Not at all like a jungle, and miles cheaper than conventional, and when needing any clearing the epoxy is very hard, not soft like paint, and when jet washing it can take the fall force of the jet wash without harming the stuff unlike with normal jet wash the paint comes off bit like if they did that to a front door and then said ooh look your antifoul needs re-doing. I got round the world without needing a proper lift out - just diving/snorkelling a bit, and a tidal dry-out in Fiji for anodes...

Ah .... I can see that the short version of my response was mis-leading. I'll edit to make it clearer but, sadly, the moment's passed.

My life story in a nutshell!

Richard