Centaur Well Saga

[blackbeard]

I have been watching this thread with a sort of fascinated horror. It starts with an ingrained idea that the quickest way to transform a boat worth not much into a boat worth nothing at all is to make a major modification of some sort.
Incidentally an inboard diesel of about the right power costs, new, maybe about a little over 3 £k, so not much more than 1£k more than the outboard. The boat, thus re-engined, would be much more saleable than a boat with an outboard and a hole. So a new inboard is actually, financially, a better proposition (that assumes, of course, that the installation to begin with is basically OK apart from engine), and might involve less work.
But I will wait to see what, if anything, happens.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

because it comes out of the water at the moment when you really need it

it is a long way to the transom for starting, fiddling

no prop wash on the rudder

As I said in the other thread, these are problems that can be solved. Extra long mounted low down, electric start, remote control steering/throttle. It's the arrangement on my boat and works really well. Steering of the engine is linked to the tiller and I can do a full 180 degree turn in 2 boat lengths, forwards or reverse, either way. Perhaps you should see it in action before you dismiss the idea.

 

[rogerball0]

If you look at Roger's blog www.agentlemansyacht.com 11th August post, I think you are going to be cutting through about where that flat bit is, the old fuel tank support.
The opening in the cockpit sole is below the forward bit of grating. http://www.wamarchitects.co.uk/aengine.html
The back bit of grating is over the fuel tank, where your well will end up.

I'm interested in the cockpit drains through the transom, any pix Roger?

No pixs at present aquaplane but its all marked out on the backside of the transom, no reason why it wont work as the drop is more than a 100mm and with one way valves one less service item.

You're right about the leg it'll be where the tank plinth is , from memory its over half inch thick on mine and to all the talk of weakening the hull - no chance - you wouldn't believe the amount of air saws i've burnt out on my project to date trying to get through the structure; just recently i removed the interior in mine and was a case in point - 12mm thick gaboon ply tabbed out with 12mm of glass! Overkill doesn't even come close, i know the quality of the boats and specs will vary but its not like you're sticking a well in a modern boat where theres a foam core and therefore a chance of saturating the hull, with the exception of the side decks and saloon floor on mine the structure is solid glass.

As long as the well is braced beam-wise and glassed in with epoxy / biax cloth on all points of contact to the hull i cant see a problem.

Dylan I've set up an album of pictures of the engine bay of mine called 'Dylan's Well' , its a few pics that may come in handy for yer, its only a quick trawl but i have gigabytes of pictures of my project so if i find anymore that might help i'll post them there. Link below

https://picasaweb.google.com/110182886418433827802/DylanSWell?authuser=0&feat=directlink

roger

www.agentlemansyacht.com

 

[blackbeard]

As I said in the other thread, these are problems that can be solved. Extra long mounted low down, electric start, remote control steering/throttle. It's the arrangement on my boat and works really well. Steering of the engine is linked to the tiller and I can do a full 180 degree turn in 2 boat lengths, forwards or reverse, either way. Perhaps you should see it in action before you dismiss the idea.

Sounds a much more practical idea!

 

[lpdsn]

Ah, but there is headlining on a Centaur, and after precisely 25 years the foam backing disintegrates and down it comes like a Bedouin tent. Replacing it is a hell of a job, and you can't simply pull it down and live in the bare hull because the worst and most necessary bit of the job is removing the powdery remains of foam stuck to the hull. You can't stick the old stuff up again either, because the remains of the foam can't be glued.

Replacing a smaller Westerly headlining was without doubt the nastiest job I have ever done, and I write as a man who spent two days recently doing stonework repairs to a 200 year old septic tank in current use.

Would Soda blasting work on the inside?

Of the Westerly that is, not the septic tank.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Have you actually seen it? It's not one of those usual swing down bracket arrangements...the whole kaboodle is on runners and slides really deep. Ken has also cut the top out of his transom so you can easily get to the controls. It works very, very well and is of course very well proven over thousands of miles...I really think you could do a lot worse than copy his set up as there's really very little difference really between the Centaur and the Sabre. If you are serious about it, I could probably scan you a copy of an article he wrote in the Sabre Association handbook?

The outboard on the transom of my small Westerly did tend to come out of the water in big waves. I always thought that was as much down to rolling and pitching, and though about mounting it centrally, behind the rudder and coupled to it to that the boat's tiller would turn the outboard too. Technically it would have been quite easy, but I did't do it because I thought it would look bloody awful behind a transom-hung rudder. On a Centaur, though, I reckon a properly mounted outboard on the centreline would look OK and be much less subject to whatever-the-opposite-of-immersion-is. Demersion? Outmersion? Desiccation?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

...whatever-the-opposite-of-immersion-is. Demersion? Outmersion? Desiccation?

Ommersion.

 

[dylanwinter]

Ommersion.

whisking air like a banshee

D

 

[dylanwinter]

thanks Roger

No pixs at present aquaplane but its all marked out on the backside of the transom, no reason why it wont work as the drop is more than a 100mm and with one way valves one less service item.

You're right about the leg it'll be where the tank plinth is , from memory its over half inch thick on mine and to all the talk of weakening the hull - no chance - you wouldn't believe the amount of air saws i've burnt out on my project to date trying to get through the structure; just recently i removed the interior in mine and was a case in point - 12mm thick gaboon ply tabbed out with 12mm of glass! Overkill doesn't even come close, i know the quality of the boats and specs will vary but its not like you're sticking a well in a modern boat where theres a foam core and therefore a chance of saturating the hull, with the exception of the side decks and saloon floor on mine the structure is solid glass.

As long as the well is braced beam-wise and glassed in with epoxy / biax cloth on all points of contact to the hull i cant see a problem.

Dylan I've set up an album of pictures of the engine bay of mine called 'Dylan's Well' , its a few pics that may come in handy for yer, its only a quick trawl but i have gigabytes of pictures of my project so if i find anymore that might help i'll post them there. Link below

https://picasaweb.google.com/110182886418433827802/DylanSWell?authuser=0&feat=directlink

roger

www.agentlemansyacht.com

bless you R

two questions

what are the box shapes for... did you fit them?

and as a man who has spent quite a lot of time down the back of a Centaur.... is there enough room to fit the engine?

D

 

[saltylegs]

If you do go down the box route don't forget ventilation, air in, fumes out. That's one of the biggest problems with outboards in wells.
If you have a good Centaur then there is no point in cutting holes in it, but if you are looking at something around 2K then who cares. Whatever you need to do to make it suit your purpose and that will keep it alive for another couple of years at least then go for it.

 

[Fantasie 19]

+1 to this - the only time I have blocked someone on here is because of their continued insensitive responses to that thread.

Naysayers be damned - good luck with your experiment Dylan - hope it comes good!

+1!

It's a win-win... Dylan gets an article out of it, Tohatsu get some free publicity, we get to read about it, and hopefully, just hopefully, a Westerly that was going to rot in a yard somewhere gets to go to sea again (and be looked after).... and if it doesn't work, how worse off is the Westerly - it's GRP - just glass it back together...

PS. Do wish people would answer the original question...

 

[aquaplane]

Of course when you are talking about a mid 20' Westerly with an outboard you are talking about a 25 or Windrush with one of these:

http://www.planetmic.com/orbit/laz01a.jpg

 

[dylanwinter]

If you do go down the box route don't forget ventilation, air in, fumes out. That's one of the biggest problems with outboards in wells.
If you have a good Centaur then there is no point in cutting holes in it, but if you are looking at something around 2K then who cares. Whatever you need to do to make it suit your purpose and that will keep it alive for another couple of years at least then go for it.

I agree, no point in cutting a hole in a good centaur

I am aware of the breathing aspect to this

what I have in mind is something not entirely unlike this

http://www.matildaowners.com/articles/outboardwell/cockpit.jpg

if the geometry works there should still be more than enough cockpit real estate for myself and occasionally my wife and pooch

however, unless I can find the right candidate boat....

D

 

[rogerball0]

bless you R

two questions

what are the box shapes for... did you fit them?

and as a man who has spent quite a lot of time down the back of a Centaur.... is there enough room to fit the engine?

D

Do you mean the last few pics in the Album? If so those boxes are from the cockpit of an American Centaur, i think there being used for storage rather than a well. Looking at the pics of the outboard it'll be tight but do-able thinking in terms of the height of the upper part of the engine. I'll get the tape out and measure abit later on.

cheers mate

 

[dylanwinter]

Do you mean the last few pics in the Album? If so those boxes are from the cockpit of an American Centaur, i think there being used for storage rather than a well. Looking at the pics of the outboard it'll be tight but do-able thinking in terms of the height of the upper part of the engine. I'll get the tape out and measure abit later on.

cheers mate

thanks R

tight is good

doable is good

I am worried that the outboard will have to be so far back that it interferes with the rudder

if it is too far back it hits the rudder

too far forward and you would have to chop a bit out of the prop shaft housing

which would kill the idea I reckon

Dylan

PS... you really do have a bit of a gift when it comes to lighting pix

 

[chewi]

.

Dylan
You seem to have an ally in Rogerball0.
I think what you propose is feasible, albeit not something I'd do, but then I don't have chronic "inboardophobia", quite the reverse.
I think you'd be better off just finding a viable centaur with a working or rebuilt inboard for about the same price yours will be. But I don't think you have the stomach for that.

If you proceed I think you can have a workable arrangement that suffers from problems you already anticipate, (Noise, petrol)
If you are persuaded to go to an inboard you will sail with fear that it will die. that will not be fun.
I would feel that way about an outboard, so I do understand the phobia bit.
(akin to anchoring, its not tha actual performance of an anchor that matters, its the confidence in it that makes the difference)

That fear may be unwarranted, but that is how it will be unless your confidence in inboards is restored. A season under a rebuild warranty might give you that confidence.


You would do well to be aware of the issue of the remnant foam from a failed headlining, that is a big nasty job, and a 1500 quid one will not have been relined and is even less likely not to need it.

I wish you well whichever way you go.

 

[Storyline]

My issue with this is the dependence on petrol. The Centaur is a heavy boat and I suspect (I am no expert) that in flat seas a 10hp o/b will push the boat along nicely. If conditions are anything other than smooth then I think the o/b will have to be run at nearly full revs when it will drink petrol. Not so much problem up the southern part of the east coast of Scotland but the further north you get the harder and harder it will be to get petrol. I think that you would be at risk of having the whole trip dictated by where you can get further supplies. The alternative is to fit a large tank where the original inboard was but personally I would not be comfortable with that.

 

[josephmoore]

So I think there are two distinct questions here.

1) Can you retrofit an outboard well to a Centaur to any useful effect?
Yes, why not. Boat's tough as old boots and outboards are man enough for the job. There are degrees of 'worth it' and that really depends on the perceived value of the owner. Each unto their own in that respect. From a purely financial respect it doesn't really stack up.

2) Is a Centaur with an outboard in a well the right boat for KTL?
This sounds like a case of PNM. The grass is not greener on the other side; there's just a big pile of potential expense upsizing to a Centaur and owning two yachts is utter madness. Katie L is relatively cramped, but it is for one winter in theory. Perhaps hitting the sewing machine and making a cockpit tent might give enough standing headroom and space to stretch out in bad weather?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Not so much problem up the southern part of the east coast of Scotland but the further north you get the harder and harder it will be to get petrol. I think that you would be at risk of having the whole trip dictated by where you can get further supplies.

I am also petrol powered and regularly bimble around West and North West Scotland. I have found that there is no problem getting petrol on the islands as the bigger ones always seem to have petrol stations in the main villages which are also the main harbours. Being small places, they are not far to walk. Examples - Port Ellen on Islay, Craighouse on Jura, Scalascaig on Colonsay. It's bigger places on the mainland like Troon and Oban that are more problematic.

 

[Storyline]

I am also petrol powered and regularly bimble around West and North West Scotland. I have found that there is no problem getting petrol on the islands as the bigger ones always seem to have petrol stations in the main villages which are also the main harbours. Being small places, they are not far to walk. Examples - Port Ellen on Islay, Craighouse on Jura, Scalascaig on Colonsay. It's bigger places on the mainland like Troon and Oban that are more problematic.

I was thinking more about the part down from Cape Wrath where petrol is hard to come by. There are of course petrol stations but they tend to be annoyingly inland. Diesel, on the other had can be obtained from friendly fishermen (sometimes!).