Sybarite
Well-Known Member
;36452 said:
If you are going for a multi, this is the one to get!
http://www.sailmagazine.com/best-boats/neel-45
http://www.neel-trimarans.com/en/
If you are going for a multi, this is the one to get!
http://www.sailmagazine.com/best-boats/neel-45
http://www.neel-trimarans.com/en/
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Hope 36452 is still around to take note of advice to his 12 year old question!
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
It is very hard to say. A lot depends on what you mean by cruising trim - weight or rig? An overweight cat is not just sluggish but is downright dangerous.
However, our very agricultural 36' cat will comfortable sail off the wind at 7 or 8 knots in a breeze of around 15kn. If the water is flat we go a bit faster and a lot more comfortably. This is a very fast, stable, relaxed, mile-eating experience, often with just a headsail. Last weekend we sometimes exceeded 10kn and averaged 8-9kn in 25kn of wind from astern.
On the wind things are very different. We find that if the water is flat we can sail very fast and pretty close to the wind, when pushing it motor sailing helps enormously. Again, last weekend we maintained a steady 6kn hard on the wind with motor assist and a very flat sea. BUT as soon as the sea picks up, upwind progress gets harder and harder and eventually we just dont want to play any more.
You can see some video of the boat in the conditions described here
However, our very agricultural 36' cat will comfortable sail off the wind at 7 or 8 knots in a breeze of around 15kn. If the water is flat we go a bit faster and a lot more comfortably. This is a very fast, stable, relaxed, mile-eating experience, often with just a headsail. Last weekend we sometimes exceeded 10kn and averaged 8-9kn in 25kn of wind from astern.
On the wind things are very different. We find that if the water is flat we can sail very fast and pretty close to the wind, when pushing it motor sailing helps enormously. Again, last weekend we maintained a steady 6kn hard on the wind with motor assist and a very flat sea. BUT as soon as the sea picks up, upwind progress gets harder and harder and eventually we just dont want to play any more.
You can see some video of the boat in the conditions described here
Rossynant
Well-Known Member
aquaplane
Well-Known Member
I thought that the idea with Blue Water sailing was to go down hill, pointing ability should be low down the list of priorities. Am I missing something?
Well exhumed by the way.
Well exhumed by the way.
mikeinkwazi
Well-Known Member
What would you call Biscay? I have crossed 8 times in a multihull (a Tri not a Cat) and not all in F3 !!!!!
Boathook
Well-Known Member
I noticed that this was an old thread. Not to sure why it has been dug up.
douglas_family
Well-Known Member
I dont think so, to much sail in too much wind will always cause a capsize. the Chris White has a lot of good inforation regarding the mathamatics of capsize in relation to wind seehttp://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/news/anna_capsize/how_much_wind.shtml for his discussion on the capsize of Anna one of his cruising cats.
I think escape hatches are manditory for all multihulls built now with the exception of warram cats as he was able to argue an exception in their case
C
catalac08
Guest
Not sure whether this is covered by "stable platform" but:-
No rolling downwind-more comfortable and sail shape is more stable
Far,far less tiring to sail distances and cooking under way is not a problem so crew and helm are kept fresher.
I am biased in favour of multihulls, but this is my experience which although not blue water sailing should still be applicable.
No rolling downwind-more comfortable and sail shape is more stable
Far,far less tiring to sail distances and cooking under way is not a problem so crew and helm are kept fresher.
I am biased in favour of multihulls, but this is my experience which although not blue water sailing should still be applicable.
jamesjermain
Well-Known Member
Adonnante
Well-Known Member
In my 50 years of sailing, half has been spent in mono and half in cats. Both are just boats and designed to be the best compromise to suit the owner. Some will have stunning sailing performance and some be easy and comfortable to sail, just don't expect both in the same vessel. The best way to see if any particular type of boat will suit is to sail it, for cat experience a specialist sea school like Topcat http://www.multihull.tv/ may be the answer. Don't be swayed by all the assurances, like any boat things can and do go wrong. As for cruising cats not being able to be capsized by wind forget it, this is what Clive Probert experienced in the Med...
We are the owners of the Prout Snowgoose Elite catamaran "Sanyassa" which capsized in Vliho bay, Levkas on 20th. September 2011. First some background. We were 15 yrs. into a circumnavigation and had logged over 54,000 nm. During that time we have, as you would expect, experienced many storms both at sea and at anchor. I can categorically state that no level of seamanship could have prevented this capsizing. First point the forecast was for a maximum 9kts. although thunderstorms were expected. Second Ormos Vliho is recognised as one of the safest anchorages in Greece and is the place that many yachts go to when strong winds are forecast. WE were anchored, lying to a 25Kg Rocna anchor in 5M 100M east of the Sail Ionian Dock.
We were down below having our early evening G & T,s at around 6.30pm. The wind was light from the SE. It was quite cool. Suddenly I became aware that the wind generator was extremely noisy. I went immediately into the cockpit and started the engine and put it in gear, my wife switched on the instruments and noted a wind strength of 75kts. Our awning blew away and at that moment we were thrown onto our port hull to an angle of around 70 degrees, we started to come back upright when an increased in the intensity of the wind flipped us over. My wife who was just emerging from the saloon door was swept back down below and down the steps into the navigation area. (She suffered a cracked pelvis). I was flung across the cockpit and became submerged I managed to swim out and surfaced alongside the port hull. The waves which were about 2 ft. apart were washing over my head. Within less than a minute they had subsided and I was able to swim round to the stern and climb onto the upturned hull. My wife was trapped down below where she found an air pocket (she is a non-swimmer). It was less than 1 minute between being in our saloon having our sundowners and us capsizing.
One person was killed trying to fend off another yacht and was trapped between the hulls. 10 yachts recorded wind speeds of 100kts. at the height of the storm.
Ruari Bradley from Vliho Yacht Club arrived within 10 minutes, and heroically dived down and managed to pull my wife out. Pictures and videos have been posted on the Vliho Yacht club facebook page.
The question is would I still choose a Prout Snowgoose again if I was contemplating a circumnavigation. Yes I would.
Another example of muddled thinking is the use of access hatches. Most would call them escape hatches, if someone is trapped inside a capsized cat and uses one they also expel a large amount of air thus reducing the buoyancy of that hull. The surge inside the hull can make it a dangerous place. In a large cat, say 55' it might work if the owner has prepared a safety cell but this is usually only found on race boats.
Peter
We are the owners of the Prout Snowgoose Elite catamaran "Sanyassa" which capsized in Vliho bay, Levkas on 20th. September 2011. First some background. We were 15 yrs. into a circumnavigation and had logged over 54,000 nm. During that time we have, as you would expect, experienced many storms both at sea and at anchor. I can categorically state that no level of seamanship could have prevented this capsizing. First point the forecast was for a maximum 9kts. although thunderstorms were expected. Second Ormos Vliho is recognised as one of the safest anchorages in Greece and is the place that many yachts go to when strong winds are forecast. WE were anchored, lying to a 25Kg Rocna anchor in 5M 100M east of the Sail Ionian Dock.
We were down below having our early evening G & T,s at around 6.30pm. The wind was light from the SE. It was quite cool. Suddenly I became aware that the wind generator was extremely noisy. I went immediately into the cockpit and started the engine and put it in gear, my wife switched on the instruments and noted a wind strength of 75kts. Our awning blew away and at that moment we were thrown onto our port hull to an angle of around 70 degrees, we started to come back upright when an increased in the intensity of the wind flipped us over. My wife who was just emerging from the saloon door was swept back down below and down the steps into the navigation area. (She suffered a cracked pelvis). I was flung across the cockpit and became submerged I managed to swim out and surfaced alongside the port hull. The waves which were about 2 ft. apart were washing over my head. Within less than a minute they had subsided and I was able to swim round to the stern and climb onto the upturned hull. My wife was trapped down below where she found an air pocket (she is a non-swimmer). It was less than 1 minute between being in our saloon having our sundowners and us capsizing.
One person was killed trying to fend off another yacht and was trapped between the hulls. 10 yachts recorded wind speeds of 100kts. at the height of the storm.
Ruari Bradley from Vliho Yacht Club arrived within 10 minutes, and heroically dived down and managed to pull my wife out. Pictures and videos have been posted on the Vliho Yacht club facebook page.
The question is would I still choose a Prout Snowgoose again if I was contemplating a circumnavigation. Yes I would.
Another example of muddled thinking is the use of access hatches. Most would call them escape hatches, if someone is trapped inside a capsized cat and uses one they also expel a large amount of air thus reducing the buoyancy of that hull. The surge inside the hull can make it a dangerous place. In a large cat, say 55' it might work if the owner has prepared a safety cell but this is usually only found on race boats.
Peter
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
;36452 said:
Much nonsense is talked in this area. Most cats and some modern monos will stay inverted if capsized. Cats are way less likely to dcapsize than a mono of the same length because their righting moment is always way greater because of the beam, and their grip on the water is always much less because of shallow keels. In comparison, the mono may well sink after capsize whereas the cat is much oless likely to do so because of the lack of ballast. In short you pays your money and makes your choice but the bigger the vessel the safer a cat is in comparison to a mono.
Big advantage both at sea when it reduces tiredness and makes eating far easier and at anchor ( where you will spend a lot of time) when you dont get bounced about the same;36452 said:
OK but less weight carrying capacity and you dont want to make the windage issue worse either. Cats slide sideways very easily;36452 said:
OK but not a lot. I used to reckon our Prout cat was on average ( all points of sail inc engine) about 15% faster than an equivalent mono. Wind systems typically travel at 15 to 25 knots so you wont outrun them in a cat or a mono.;36452 said:
True but remember the weight issue. The heavier you make a cat the less safe it is.;36452 said:
I [preferred our single engine and drive leg. Just about as manoeuverable as twins, less maintenance and cost;36452 said:
No reason for a cat to be any better than a mono. But what usually is way better is the lightness and airyness of the deck saloon.;36452 said:
Correct and very handy.;36452 said:
Correct.;36452 said:
;36452 said:
We changed our Prout for a mono when we changed our plans but I would unhesitatingly chose a cat for long term long distance. Simply much easier and pleasanter to liver aboard. But less fun to sail. Bit more difficult to handle. And more expensive in marinas.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
I wonder what the Original Poster did over the last 11 years?
jamesjermain
Well-Known Member
A lot of the 'facts' about cats are actually personal opinion and there are a lot of misconception both ways.
In my 'personal opinion' a properly designed fast cruising cat is ideal for sailing the oceans of the world. They are extremely difficult to capsize and usually only do so in specific combinations of wind and waves. The biggest threat to an ocean crossing cat is a sudden squall at night. Also, in extremis a cat is more difficult to heave to in order to ride out a storm safely. Most offshore cats carry para-anchors - huge drogues - that really do hold a cat at a safe angle to the wind and wave train but they take a lot of deploying and even more recovery.
The greatest fear for a monohull is hitting something - whale, fridgebaulk of timber - and sinking. If a cat hits the same it may be holed but it will (should?) float.
Motion is entirely subjective. I far prefer the motion of a cat. Many others hate it. Multis crash and bang to windward, it is true, but being generally on an even keel, cooking, eating and sleeping are, in my personal opinion, far easier in all conditions. I am tempted to state as fact that, down wind a cat is enormously more comfortable since it does not roll and speed can be adjusted to suit the wave train.
Mondern cruising cats are only slightly faster on average over all conditions than monos, in my opinion not nearly fast enough to be significantly more capable of getting out of the way of bad weather once in the open ocean. Sophisticated weather rooting is the only way round it. Having said that, I was cruising in the Bahamas in a cat a few years ago when news of an approaching tropical storm came through. We were a days sail away from the charter base and left our anchorage at the same time as a mono charter yacht of a similar length. We got into port comfortably by mid-afternoon as the wind began to build. The mono also beat the storm but by the time they reached shelter two or three hours later conditions were much worse. Wind direction and sea state were, though, perfect for a cat.
Mooring in central south of England is a problem for a cat - far less so in the West Country and Scottish waters. In the Med multis can have problems in small harbours. In the Caribbean they are perfect for almost all reasons (in my opinion).
Despite owning a cat for a number of years I still have a deep rooted sense that they are not 'proper' boats and if I were to plan a transAtlantic or world voyage the jury is still out whether I would go single or double
Err...
...No it's not it would have to be double.
In my 'personal opinion' a properly designed fast cruising cat is ideal for sailing the oceans of the world. They are extremely difficult to capsize and usually only do so in specific combinations of wind and waves. The biggest threat to an ocean crossing cat is a sudden squall at night. Also, in extremis a cat is more difficult to heave to in order to ride out a storm safely. Most offshore cats carry para-anchors - huge drogues - that really do hold a cat at a safe angle to the wind and wave train but they take a lot of deploying and even more recovery.
The greatest fear for a monohull is hitting something - whale, fridgebaulk of timber - and sinking. If a cat hits the same it may be holed but it will (should?) float.
Motion is entirely subjective. I far prefer the motion of a cat. Many others hate it. Multis crash and bang to windward, it is true, but being generally on an even keel, cooking, eating and sleeping are, in my personal opinion, far easier in all conditions. I am tempted to state as fact that, down wind a cat is enormously more comfortable since it does not roll and speed can be adjusted to suit the wave train.
Mondern cruising cats are only slightly faster on average over all conditions than monos, in my opinion not nearly fast enough to be significantly more capable of getting out of the way of bad weather once in the open ocean. Sophisticated weather rooting is the only way round it. Having said that, I was cruising in the Bahamas in a cat a few years ago when news of an approaching tropical storm came through. We were a days sail away from the charter base and left our anchorage at the same time as a mono charter yacht of a similar length. We got into port comfortably by mid-afternoon as the wind began to build. The mono also beat the storm but by the time they reached shelter two or three hours later conditions were much worse. Wind direction and sea state were, though, perfect for a cat.
Mooring in central south of England is a problem for a cat - far less so in the West Country and Scottish waters. In the Med multis can have problems in small harbours. In the Caribbean they are perfect for almost all reasons (in my opinion).
Despite owning a cat for a number of years I still have a deep rooted sense that they are not 'proper' boats and if I were to plan a transAtlantic or world voyage the jury is still out whether I would go single or double
Err...
...No it's not it would have to be double.
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jamesjermain
Well-Known Member
My cat is not typical. I can sail at 28 degrees apparent but best VMG in moderate conditions comes at around 38 degrees. In the heavy stuff I might go out to 43. However, best VMG in a F4 breeze can be up to nine knots (32ft waterline length).
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
King Penguin
Well-Known Member
I must admit if I was planning a leisurely circumnavigation and won the lottery, a Lagoon 52 or 56 would be on my shopping list.......they've even got flybridges and I could certainly live in a style I could easily get accustomed to. 
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/lagoon_560_presentation_uk.php
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/lagoon_560_presentation_uk.php
25931
Well-Known Member
We've sailed Equinoxe (10m Snowgoose) in 6m waves and been perfectly happy - I suppose that it depends on what you call "big".
What corkscrew motion ?
Talbot
Well-Known Member
Nothing changes / A question about catamarans is pounced on by a number of people to prove why a cat is the worst possible answer - A quick look discloses that all the naysayers are pure mono sailors so their opinion is worth the cost.
With catamarans, you have to understand that there are three basic types>
slower boats that have an ability to carry cruising weight
faster boats that are exceedingly sensitive to weight
exspensive boats that can do both.
If you are looking for long distance cruise, then you need the ability to carry some weight. Modern boats have much better performance to windward than the old fashioned ones - particularly Catalacs (actually Noah's ark was better to windward than a Catalac!) Yet I owned a 9m Catalac for 21 years and got a lot of pleasure from it.
Some of the modern boats such as the Gemini will outperform any cruising mono, even to windward. Although that is not a design I would chose for blue water.
I now have a Privilege 37 and feel very comfortable aboard her even in some pretty steap seas. The biggest problem in most cats is a tendency to accept that they are so stable, that you dont secure sufficiently for bad weather.
The movement at sea is different from that in a mono - I prefer it, but can understand that others do not. Personally the thought of 3 weeks of death rolling in a monohull dead downwind on a trade wind route is enough to make me suicidal.
Where a cat really scores is at the end of a passage, when at anchor or in a marina. it is like having a ground floor flat with a good garden, by comparison to living in a cave.
With catamarans, you have to understand that there are three basic types>
slower boats that have an ability to carry cruising weight
faster boats that are exceedingly sensitive to weight
exspensive boats that can do both.
If you are looking for long distance cruise, then you need the ability to carry some weight. Modern boats have much better performance to windward than the old fashioned ones - particularly Catalacs (actually Noah's ark was better to windward than a Catalac!) Yet I owned a 9m Catalac for 21 years and got a lot of pleasure from it.
Some of the modern boats such as the Gemini will outperform any cruising mono, even to windward. Although that is not a design I would chose for blue water.
I now have a Privilege 37 and feel very comfortable aboard her even in some pretty steap seas. The biggest problem in most cats is a tendency to accept that they are so stable, that you dont secure sufficiently for bad weather.
The movement at sea is different from that in a mono - I prefer it, but can understand that others do not. Personally the thought of 3 weeks of death rolling in a monohull dead downwind on a trade wind route is enough to make me suicidal.
Where a cat really scores is at the end of a passage, when at anchor or in a marina. it is like having a ground floor flat with a good garden, by comparison to living in a cave.
Boathook
Well-Known Member
My catalac goes better to windward than Noah's ark. Just need to use a 'jib' rather than a genoa. I still keep the genoa on board ready to use but just keep to the jib on the furler.