tcm
...
Re: \"serious cruising\"
ooh it might have been a jeanneau - or a benny...
ooh it might have been a jeanneau - or a benny...
Catamarans: is it really sailing?
- Thread starter Saguday
- Start date
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
Re: \"serious cruising\" and patio doors
I have only bumped into patio doors ashore, not at sea...... maybe as I am so absent minded I should carry a supply of sticky labels with me to stick on any doors I come across, so I wont bump into them in future..... altho' I will probably only find them by bumping into them in the first place..... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Maybe I could print off some of Lakey's gems onto sticky stuff, and lavish them everywhere - owners of said doors might not be too happy though.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Back to reality now, re washboards, I wuz thinking having a channel each side of the companionway (is it still called that on a cat when you walk in on the same level?) for the washboards to slot into - these channels would be inside the doors. Then you can leave the doors open, and add 1, 2 or 3 (or more) washboards as conditions demands, while still getting some fresh air down below.
And if conditions are such that the [--word removed--] is really hitting the fan big time, then close the doors as well, for a double whammy.
Sorry Helina, it would be nice if I could blame my door bashing antics on Margeritas (or any other form of alcohol abuse), but I cant. Just plain simple errors in navigation...... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
PS - On the subject of mono vs multi, I have some lovely Scandahooligan friends who went around the world (and around the Atlantic a few times) on a 39' heavy displacement (19 tonnes) ferrocement (I wont say concrete!) Colin Archer type gaff ketch called Red Admiral.
They owned her for about 25 years, then changed tack, sold her, bought a 40' German built epoxy strip-planked catamaran, and have never looked back since.
They are now (last time I looked) in Cartagena, Columbia and have a good web-log of their adventures at http://www.whiteadmiral.com
I have only bumped into patio doors ashore, not at sea...... maybe as I am so absent minded I should carry a supply of sticky labels with me to stick on any doors I come across, so I wont bump into them in future..... altho' I will probably only find them by bumping into them in the first place..... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Maybe I could print off some of Lakey's gems onto sticky stuff, and lavish them everywhere - owners of said doors might not be too happy though.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Back to reality now, re washboards, I wuz thinking having a channel each side of the companionway (is it still called that on a cat when you walk in on the same level?) for the washboards to slot into - these channels would be inside the doors. Then you can leave the doors open, and add 1, 2 or 3 (or more) washboards as conditions demands, while still getting some fresh air down below.
And if conditions are such that the [--word removed--] is really hitting the fan big time, then close the doors as well, for a double whammy.
Sorry Helina, it would be nice if I could blame my door bashing antics on Margeritas (or any other form of alcohol abuse), but I cant. Just plain simple errors in navigation...... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
PS - On the subject of mono vs multi, I have some lovely Scandahooligan friends who went around the world (and around the Atlantic a few times) on a 39' heavy displacement (19 tonnes) ferrocement (I wont say concrete!) Colin Archer type gaff ketch called Red Admiral.
They owned her for about 25 years, then changed tack, sold her, bought a 40' German built epoxy strip-planked catamaran, and have never looked back since.
They are now (last time I looked) in Cartagena, Columbia and have a good web-log of their adventures at http://www.whiteadmiral.com
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Re: \"serious cruising\" and patio doors
[ QUOTE ]
...is it still called that on a cat when you walk in on the same level?...
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't speak for others but mine's a door. I do tend to refer to 'cockpit' rather than 'patio' but on my boat ceilings are above your head and floors are for walking on. Soles are attached to my feet and you go below using stairs. We have a shower room and our heads are on our shoulders.
[ QUOTE ]
...is it still called that on a cat when you walk in on the same level?...
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't speak for others but mine's a door. I do tend to refer to 'cockpit' rather than 'patio' but on my boat ceilings are above your head and floors are for walking on. Soles are attached to my feet and you go below using stairs. We have a shower room and our heads are on our shoulders.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Re: \"serious cruising\" and patio doors
I watch the tell tales, adjust the genoa and mainsheet cars - I even tweek the outhaul; but within 5 minutes of owning a cat I was calling the heads the bathroom and the galley the kitchen.
I watch the tell tales, adjust the genoa and mainsheet cars - I even tweek the outhaul; but within 5 minutes of owning a cat I was calling the heads the bathroom and the galley the kitchen.
Saguday
Well-Known Member
Re: \"serious cruising\" and patio doors
No need to be so primitive on a lux cruising cat shorely.
Some sort of folding solid shutter type arrangement or p'raps slidey things that disappear out of the way until the missus says oi it's behind you! and you can then whip them out in readiness so to speak. Plenty of space and spare plastic walling on a cat patio deck to do something clever like that or even electro-hydraulic up and down stuff like that cat I read about in Sail a few months ago.
More ideas please we're almost up to 1000 viewings and I've never had a thread on scuttlebut that's got that far oops kiss of death I suspect /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
No need to be so primitive on a lux cruising cat shorely.
Some sort of folding solid shutter type arrangement or p'raps slidey things that disappear out of the way until the missus says oi it's behind you! and you can then whip them out in readiness so to speak. Plenty of space and spare plastic walling on a cat patio deck to do something clever like that or even electro-hydraulic up and down stuff like that cat I read about in Sail a few months ago.
More ideas please we're almost up to 1000 viewings and I've never had a thread on scuttlebut that's got that far oops kiss of death I suspect /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
tcm
...
Just re-read this and realised swmbo pprobly don't want *any* other boat within only a year of buying tha last one. Biological innit, nestbuilding blah etc , otherwsie they would kick out the hapless 18 month old baby in favour of newborn etc.
So you will have to give it a while. Swmbo's can't support any swap of own crusing boat within three years i reckon. Sensible tho else you get a financial caning...
So you will have to give it a while. Swmbo's can't support any swap of own crusing boat within three years i reckon. Sensible tho else you get a financial caning...
Saguday
Well-Known Member
I know she doesn't want to swap it's me that feels it necessary to do due diligence. Besides this has been an interesting intellectual exercise and I've learned a lot in a couple of days. May even try a cat one day who knows? .... err SWMBO says as long as it's somewhere warm as she's leaning over my shoulder vetting this as I type...
Saguday
Well-Known Member
yay 1007 views done it
alant
Well-Known Member
Wood Cats
Apparently, just been told by a 'new' owner of a Woods 32', that it can do 7 knts comfortably to windward! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Anyone able to confirm this claim.
Apparently, just been told by a 'new' owner of a Woods 32', that it can do 7 knts comfortably to windward! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Anyone able to confirm this claim.
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
Re: Wood Cats
I went sailing on Richard's Eclipse when she was here a few years ago, and she was certainly going like a train, upwind and down (and this was loaded up with cruising kit) - I think we quite probably did 7 knots to windward in sheltered water, and easily 6 knots out in the open ocean with the Trades blowing.
I went sailing on Richard's Eclipse when she was here a few years ago, and she was certainly going like a train, upwind and down (and this was loaded up with cruising kit) - I think we quite probably did 7 knots to windward in sheltered water, and easily 6 knots out in the open ocean with the Trades blowing.
kcrane
Well-Known Member
Sail the BB385 Kioni. You'll find Mark or Mike will take you out on WaterMargin, and if not, you can come out on Intraventure.
As some have said, it absolutely is less intimate & less intuitive than the mono's we used to sail. It is also (being honest) less attractive to my eyes.
But for all the other reasons (speed, safety, stability, space, comfort) we would find it hard to go back to a mono.
There isn't an answer to the mono or multi debate that is in isolation to your own priorities. Don't believe anyone who doesn't start their answer with "Well, it depends..." /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
As some have said, it absolutely is less intimate & less intuitive than the mono's we used to sail. It is also (being honest) less attractive to my eyes.
But for all the other reasons (speed, safety, stability, space, comfort) we would find it hard to go back to a mono.
There isn't an answer to the mono or multi debate that is in isolation to your own priorities. Don't believe anyone who doesn't start their answer with "Well, it depends..." /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Saguday
Well-Known Member
Thank you, Captain /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
The 385 did seem to be a reasonably well sorted piece of kit. We may well try one out, to satisfy curiosity if nothing else, although I have to say we have no intention of trading allegiences at this time /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I did check out chartering one but for the price of a week in the Med we could fly out to our boat in the US and cruise for about 3 months...
The 385 did seem to be a reasonably well sorted piece of kit. We may well try one out, to satisfy curiosity if nothing else, although I have to say we have no intention of trading allegiences at this time /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I did check out chartering one but for the price of a week in the Med we could fly out to our boat in the US and cruise for about 3 months...
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Re: \"serious cruising\"
[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that large patio doors on many cruising cats need a supplementary bracing structure for bad weather well offshore, and cockpit drainage could well do with upgrading.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm still not quite convinced by the need for patio door reinforcement but your point on cockpit draining is valid. Modern cats seem to have taken this on board and cockpits look more like like flat surfaces suspended above the sea rather than large batch tubs.
I've also noticed on some cats that the engines are outside and in aft lockers rather than accessible from the cockpit. This will certainly help avoid flooding in your scenario but in all normal conditions I'm not so sure about the concept as I'd rather not be outside when fiddling with the engine in a seaway.
[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that large patio doors on many cruising cats need a supplementary bracing structure for bad weather well offshore, and cockpit drainage could well do with upgrading.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm still not quite convinced by the need for patio door reinforcement but your point on cockpit draining is valid. Modern cats seem to have taken this on board and cockpits look more like like flat surfaces suspended above the sea rather than large batch tubs.
I've also noticed on some cats that the engines are outside and in aft lockers rather than accessible from the cockpit. This will certainly help avoid flooding in your scenario but in all normal conditions I'm not so sure about the concept as I'd rather not be outside when fiddling with the engine in a seaway.
rpthomas
Member
Re: \"serious cruising\"
My experience of the Patio Door on the Lagoon I was skippering this summer is that it is delightful on a warm, calm day. But in a seaway, its not so much the issue of taking water over the stern, but what it does in a roll.
If you open the door whilst the boat is heeled, and don't push it all the way to its locked position, the danger is that it can slam back closed again. Now there's a lot of weight in one of those doors with all that glass, and (from experience) it can close on your arm with one hell of a force. Without protection, easily enough to remove a digit or three.
Locking it open is not an option.
The other problem, which is much more easily overcome with a bit of design, is that the door is opened with a key, and that the one on my Lagoon locked closed and could not be opened from the cockpit WITHOUT the key. That meant that movement into the cabin from the cockpit was seriously impeded, and that free movement from one vital part of the yacht (steering position) to another (nav table, radio, etc) was also seriously impeded. In my opinion, this is an MAIB investigation waiting to happen.
Richard
My experience of the Patio Door on the Lagoon I was skippering this summer is that it is delightful on a warm, calm day. But in a seaway, its not so much the issue of taking water over the stern, but what it does in a roll.
If you open the door whilst the boat is heeled, and don't push it all the way to its locked position, the danger is that it can slam back closed again. Now there's a lot of weight in one of those doors with all that glass, and (from experience) it can close on your arm with one hell of a force. Without protection, easily enough to remove a digit or three.
Locking it open is not an option.
The other problem, which is much more easily overcome with a bit of design, is that the door is opened with a key, and that the one on my Lagoon locked closed and could not be opened from the cockpit WITHOUT the key. That meant that movement into the cabin from the cockpit was seriously impeded, and that free movement from one vital part of the yacht (steering position) to another (nav table, radio, etc) was also seriously impeded. In my opinion, this is an MAIB investigation waiting to happen.
Richard
rpthomas
Member
Re: Wood Cats
Gave up planning on 5 knots, then on 6 knots, then on 7 knots, and ended up passage planning on 8 knots on the Lagoon 40. They are fast in any kind of blow. Really fast. But they also sail green, and mine didn't have a spray hood or goffer stopper.
Gave up planning on 5 knots, then on 6 knots, then on 7 knots, and ended up passage planning on 8 knots on the Lagoon 40. They are fast in any kind of blow. Really fast. But they also sail green, and mine didn't have a spray hood or goffer stopper.
mobeydick
Well-Known Member
Re: Patio doors
The BB385 has a smaller glass area at the back than most other similar cats. The some of the old Prout designs had small, outward opening, wooden, hinged doors.
There have been MANY circumnavigations with similar patio-style doors, and I have not heard of any serious problems with them.
The BB385 has a smaller glass area at the back than most other similar cats. The some of the old Prout designs had small, outward opening, wooden, hinged doors.
There have been MANY circumnavigations with similar patio-style doors, and I have not heard of any serious problems with them.
Auntie Helen
Well-Known Member
Gemini Catamarans
Have any of you seen/sailed the Gemini 105Mc that was at the London boat show the other week? I was very much struck by it as an example of a boat that feels very safe and also roomy - and apparently sails very well. I wasn't sure how much was saleswoman's pitch and how much was true, but being a fair weather sailor only the thought of a non-heeling and comfy boat is pretty appealing. Anyone tried one?
Have any of you seen/sailed the Gemini 105Mc that was at the London boat show the other week? I was very much struck by it as an example of a boat that feels very safe and also roomy - and apparently sails very well. I wasn't sure how much was saleswoman's pitch and how much was true, but being a fair weather sailor only the thought of a non-heeling and comfy boat is pretty appealing. Anyone tried one?
jh2005
Well-Known Member
Catamarans
Well I'm now replying to my previous post (I was Tante_Helena). This just shows the danger of visiting the London Boat Show in January! it's now mid-August and we are the proud owners of a catamaran. Not a Gemini, as it happens, but a Prout Event 34.
Between January and August we spent a great deal of time trying to decide what we wanted most out of our boat and what was less important. Bearing in mind this is a husband-and-wife team choosing - the husband likes speed, enjoys heeling but likes a reasonable amount of comfort; the wife (me) isn't fussed about speed, won't go out in more than a force 4, hates heeling with a passion, considers safety as paramount and has an overdeveloped sense of unsafety on boats. Our Bavaria 34 was a good boat but too often I had to stay at home as I knew the weather conditions would be too much for me; on several occasions over the last year my shrieking from the cockpit meant we had to return to the marina because the weather/heel was too much for me.
Someone said earlier in the thread that any statement of which boat suits doesn't start with "it depends on..." was exactly right. There are so many different things to consider. For me, stability, comfort and safety are far more important than windward ability and sensation of speed. And the safety issue is also subject to "it depends..." Of course we're aware of the possibility of capsize (along with keels dropping off and knockdowns and capsize on monos) but there's more to safety than capsizing in freak weather conditions. For me, safety is about moving about the boat safely (I am disabled) and not falling overboard because of unexpected heel. On our previous monohull I wouldn't let my poor long-suffering husband let it heel very much at all due to fears of slipping off the boat somehow, despite always being clipped on, even when sitting in the cockpit. With the new catamaran I found myself walking around on the front deck without even holding on to anything. Now I won't make a habit of that but the feel of the boat gave me a completely different idea of stability.
Conforming to the traditional view of women just for a moment, I also like the fact that my kitchen (can't seem able to call it a galley) has a two and a half bowl sink, 3 ring hob, decent oven with grill (all ungimballed as that's not required), front-loader fridge as well as chest fridge and oodles of cupboard space. It's also great to be able to use the loo (clearly not a 'head') even if one's yoga classes have lapsed. The living area is enormous, sleeping areas fine, cockpit spacious and general layout very handy. We don't yet have pot-plants on board but the previous owner had 2 china table-lamps in the lounge area which presumably don't fall over the whole time. All this in a boat the same length as our Bav (a 34) and costing the same to moor at Sovereign Harbour (who don't charge 1.5 or 2x Mono prices, hurrah for them).
The proof of the pudding is in the eating so we'll have to see if I can brave more than a Force 4 in our new cat but I am cautiously hopeful. We had a day out on a Gemini with a friend and were going along very nicely and I felt very happy heeling at 5 degrees whilst watching lots of monos showing significant amounts of underbelly due to the wind - and we were doing 10 knots! The Prout will be slower than that, of course, but probably heel a bit less too.
I think in all the mono vs cat arguments it's easy to forget that if SWMBO (which is me in this case) can be kept happy then the whole sailing experience is probably far more enjoyable. Mr Chellers has decided to trade boating excitement/heel on the Bav for wifely accompaniment (and culinary skills) on the catamaran. He seems to think it a worthwhile trade and the hope that we can do more sailing together (bearing in mind he used the mono 50 days last year, I probably was with him for 35 of 'em) makes the overall cost of yacht ownership easier to swallow.
Of course, this is just our opinion and what suits us. For you, it depends... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Mrs Chellers
Well I'm now replying to my previous post (I was Tante_Helena). This just shows the danger of visiting the London Boat Show in January! it's now mid-August and we are the proud owners of a catamaran. Not a Gemini, as it happens, but a Prout Event 34.
Between January and August we spent a great deal of time trying to decide what we wanted most out of our boat and what was less important. Bearing in mind this is a husband-and-wife team choosing - the husband likes speed, enjoys heeling but likes a reasonable amount of comfort; the wife (me) isn't fussed about speed, won't go out in more than a force 4, hates heeling with a passion, considers safety as paramount and has an overdeveloped sense of unsafety on boats. Our Bavaria 34 was a good boat but too often I had to stay at home as I knew the weather conditions would be too much for me; on several occasions over the last year my shrieking from the cockpit meant we had to return to the marina because the weather/heel was too much for me.
Someone said earlier in the thread that any statement of which boat suits doesn't start with "it depends on..." was exactly right. There are so many different things to consider. For me, stability, comfort and safety are far more important than windward ability and sensation of speed. And the safety issue is also subject to "it depends..." Of course we're aware of the possibility of capsize (along with keels dropping off and knockdowns and capsize on monos) but there's more to safety than capsizing in freak weather conditions. For me, safety is about moving about the boat safely (I am disabled) and not falling overboard because of unexpected heel. On our previous monohull I wouldn't let my poor long-suffering husband let it heel very much at all due to fears of slipping off the boat somehow, despite always being clipped on, even when sitting in the cockpit. With the new catamaran I found myself walking around on the front deck without even holding on to anything. Now I won't make a habit of that but the feel of the boat gave me a completely different idea of stability.
Conforming to the traditional view of women just for a moment, I also like the fact that my kitchen (can't seem able to call it a galley) has a two and a half bowl sink, 3 ring hob, decent oven with grill (all ungimballed as that's not required), front-loader fridge as well as chest fridge and oodles of cupboard space. It's also great to be able to use the loo (clearly not a 'head') even if one's yoga classes have lapsed. The living area is enormous, sleeping areas fine, cockpit spacious and general layout very handy. We don't yet have pot-plants on board but the previous owner had 2 china table-lamps in the lounge area which presumably don't fall over the whole time. All this in a boat the same length as our Bav (a 34) and costing the same to moor at Sovereign Harbour (who don't charge 1.5 or 2x Mono prices, hurrah for them).
The proof of the pudding is in the eating so we'll have to see if I can brave more than a Force 4 in our new cat but I am cautiously hopeful. We had a day out on a Gemini with a friend and were going along very nicely and I felt very happy heeling at 5 degrees whilst watching lots of monos showing significant amounts of underbelly due to the wind - and we were doing 10 knots! The Prout will be slower than that, of course, but probably heel a bit less too.
I think in all the mono vs cat arguments it's easy to forget that if SWMBO (which is me in this case) can be kept happy then the whole sailing experience is probably far more enjoyable. Mr Chellers has decided to trade boating excitement/heel on the Bav for wifely accompaniment (and culinary skills) on the catamaran. He seems to think it a worthwhile trade and the hope that we can do more sailing together (bearing in mind he used the mono 50 days last year, I probably was with him for 35 of 'em) makes the overall cost of yacht ownership easier to swallow.
Of course, this is just our opinion and what suits us. For you, it depends... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Mrs Chellers
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamarans
Met a couple on the ARC who had sailed there from Japan in an Event 34. They seemed pretty happy with its seaworthiness. You won't be going anywhere quickly but you've already realised that.
One tip - there's a lot more space than on a mono but you mustn't fill it up! Even though it's a Prout, keep it light.
Met a couple on the ARC who had sailed there from Japan in an Event 34. They seemed pretty happy with its seaworthiness. You won't be going anywhere quickly but you've already realised that.
One tip - there's a lot more space than on a mono but you mustn't fill it up! Even though it's a Prout, keep it light.
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamarans
[ QUOTE ]
One tip - there's a lot more space than on a mono but you mustn't fill it up! Even though it's a Prout, keep it light.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Brilliant, so brilliant let's hear it again
[ QUOTE ]
One tip - there's a lot more space than on a mono but you mustn't fill it up! Even though it's a Prout, keep it light.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
And once more for those who were late arriving
[ QUOTE ]
One tip - there's a lot more space than on a mono but you mustn't fill it up! Even though it's a Prout, keep it light.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I always thought you were marred and yet you come out with gems like these /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
One tip - there's a lot more space than on a mono but you mustn't fill it up! Even though it's a Prout, keep it light.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Brilliant, so brilliant let's hear it again
[ QUOTE ]
One tip - there's a lot more space than on a mono but you mustn't fill it up! Even though it's a Prout, keep it light.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
And once more for those who were late arriving
[ QUOTE ]
One tip - there's a lot more space than on a mono but you mustn't fill it up! Even though it's a Prout, keep it light.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I always thought you were marred and yet you come out with gems like these /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
