Capsizing.

[Kintail]

On other threads Ive explained that after 10 years with a sea angler going to have my first sail boat. Obviousy I'll be seeking help in learning but reading all about broaching and gybe I'm wondering what a my prospects of a capsize are over my learning period and beyond( I suppose you are learning forever). What kind of percentage is involved? I am aiming to have a boat of around 22ft.

 

[agurney]

On other threads Ive explained that after 10 years with a sea angler going to have my first sail boat. Obviousy I'll be seeking help in learning but reading all about broaching and gybe I'm wondering what a my prospects of a capsize are over my learning period and beyond( I suppose you are learning forever). What kind of percentage is involved? I am aiming to have a boat of around 22ft.

0%, unless you're unlucky

 

[richardbayle]

+1 And very unlucky as well

 

[prv]

"Sail boat" covers everything from

to

​

You would be continuously capsizing the former, you wouldn't capsize the latter unless you tried to cross oceans in it.

Pete

 

[ianat182]

If your new boat is a centreboarder and you hoist all sail without the centreboard lowered there is a good chance of the boat at least laying on her side and filling with water in the cockpit, if on a broad reach this is less likely to occur, until you luff up into the closehauled angle to the wind. A fin keeled yacht usually has enough ballast in its keel to counteract an inversion, but would still be vulnerable in high, heavy breaking waves if caught broadside to them, and much the same with a bilge keeled yacht.
A long-keeled yacht will be the least likely to capsize as the ballast ratios are around the 50% mark, and designed for cruising in rough waters.
Broaching is often the result of a too-balanced rig as when goose-winging downwind, this may set up a pendulum effect resulting in the boom touching the water and a loss of steering control, this then leading to a vicious gybe and a hard luff into the wind. Add a spinnaker to the mix and chaos can reign.
Often a boom preventer is fitted to restrain the boom from gybing accidentally, but may not prevent the broaching.
An intentional gybe should be prepared for by hauling in the mainsail to the centreline of the yacht and when the jib has been brought across, releasing the mainsail under control to the correct angle for the next course.
What is known as a 'Chinese gybe 'is where there is no restraint on the boom, like a kicking strap(boom vang) allowing the boom end to be lifted high into the air as it crosses the boat, done badly this can result in a torn mainsail.

Any inadvertent gybe is potentially dangerous, so keeping control and one's head down is a necessity, though I should add that the mainsheet itself can be just as lethal if crossing the cockpit area,when so much sheet has been let out for the running course,and its not just a slap when it hits, and can take you out of the boat.

Not many of us like sailing directly downwind, preferring a broad reach angle and with a spinnaker rigged, however a cruising chute does simplify the required gear to deploy and if shorthanded is easily dowsed, without histrionics, by using a tack line to the corner of the sail to release or adjust when sailing.

22ft boats like the Kestrel and the Pandora, Pageant, Warwick or Seal are generally stable platforms and aren't likely to be capsized under most conditions they'd be out in.

Have you found the boat you want yet?

ianat182

 

[Seajet]

The great thing about performance sailing dinghies is, you can go nuts, push your luck with a tremendous sensation of speed, and if it all goes wrong all you get is wet and a new learning experience.

Cruisers - even 22's, I've had one for 33 years and done some daft things when young - will NOT capsize in the dinghy sense, will only get turned over if in huge waves.

It's essential to realise that when a boat heels over the wind blows ( spills ) off the top of the sail rather than blowing onto it, so with a cruisers' keel ballast weight - a good third or more of the whole boat weight, hung a fair depth below like a pendulum - will keep the boat up in any wind.

Dinghies rely on the crew weight on the windward side to do the same thing; I think a trip or two in a dinghy with a good instructor would be a good idea if you are even slightly agile; my club takes out people with various physical impediments of all ages and they seem to rather enjoy themselves.

After that, ask me about 22' boats, you may even get a sail !

 

[Kintail]

Thanks for the reassuring replies! In answer to Ians post- no I havent found my boat yet but seriously looking. However, holidays and various other away time means that for the next five weeks or so I have to put my looking on the back burner a wee bit. I would hope to have settled on something before October-again folks are saying that I should hold off for an end of season bargain.

 

[Alfie168]

On other threads Ive explained that after 10 years with a sea angler going to have my first sail boat. Obviousy I'll be seeking help in learning but reading all about broaching and gybe I'm wondering what a my prospects of a capsize are over my learning period and beyond( I suppose you are learning forever). What kind of percentage is involved? I am aiming to have a boat of around 22ft.

Are you stateside as we tend not to use the term 'sail boat' on this side of the pond? If you have ten years experience with a motor boat then you have more experience than many who begin sailing.

I would say however, that if your knowledge of sailing is such that you need to ask about capsizing a sailing vessel, then I think I would suggest you try and get some sailing done on other peoples boats, or take an introduction to sailing course. This will give you a better feel for how sailing boats behave, and as already said, they vary, depending on design. Its important therefore to be sure in your own mind that the kind of sailing boat you want is what you get.

On a normal days sailing, a capsize is pretty well unknown in the types of boats most of us on here sail, i.e. cruising yachts. In racing dinghies its an everyday event, and all part of the 'fun'.

You can capsize a cruising yacht, but only in conditions you'd never go out in. That is not to say they cannot reach alarming angles at times, but they are designed to do that and stay upright.

Go and have a sail and see how you get on. Then come back and talk to us some more.

Tim

 

[snowleopard]

Tom Cunliffe related how he started racing in heavy keelboats. It was his practice when rounding the windward mark on a course to bear away onto a broad reach then adjust the sails. He then switched to a dinghy and couldn't figure out why every time he rounded a windward mark the boat would immediately capsize. The heavy boat would look after him but in the dinghy, bringing the wind onto the beam with the sailes hauled in tight would flip him over every time.

Moral of the story - you learn to do things properly in a dinghy whereas a keelboat will let you get away with bad practices.

A small cruising boat will have less sail than a much smaller racing dinghy so it will look after you. The most dangerous combination is a big powerful boat with enough sail area to get you into trouble but too hefty to be easily righted when things go wrong.

My advice is to get some proper sail training before going out on your own. You can easily scare yourself enough to put you off sailing for life.

 

[Allan]

I have a description which I have used to allay the fears of people who get nervous when yachts heel. It is easy in a bar but I never tried to write it down before. When the boat heels some people think it is a precursor to falling over.
So, the things that lay the boat over are the sails. The thing that stops it falling over is the keel.
If you put your hand up in front of your face, with the palm facing you to represent the sail. That is what the wind is pushing on when you are upright. As you lean you hand back away from you, the height and therefore the area that the wind is pushing on reduces.
If you then imagine a keel hanging in a frame, able to pivot from side to side. Even a big keel could be moved, say 100mm to one side. If it were raised up on the pivot to say 30 degrees and you tried to lift it a further 100mm, you couldn't.
The point is that, as the sail looses it's ability to knock the boat over, the keel is gaining it's ability to bring the boat upright.
I understand C of E and righting moments but above is a simple version and much easier to describe face to face.
Allan

 

[ProDave]

I'm a newcomer to sailing, so I thought it might be of interest to tell you our experiences.

We are (mostly) self taught sailors. We bought a boat last september, read some books, and went to sea. (just what most people advise you not to do)

Our first few trips went well, on nice calm days. Then we went to sea when it was a bit windy, and on a handful of occasions, we got it wrong, resulting in the boat heeling over at what to us seemed an alarming angle. But it DID NOT tip over, in fact we didn't even get any water anywhere in the boat, not even in the cockpit.

Later we had some informal lessons from an experienced sailor which was of great help and largely taught us what we were doing wrong and how to avoid it. We have not had any issues like that since.

On one of our lessons, our tutor had us all sitting on the leeward side to increase the heel angle, just to convince us that whatever we do, the boat is not going to tip over.

Our boat is an 18 foot boat with a lifting keel (see avatar and album under my profile) , so probably smaller than what the OP is intending to buy. If our little boat is this stable, I am sure whatever he buys will be.

One important thing with a lifting keel boat is they are not very stable with the keel up. So don't forget to lower the keel before raising the sails. I have read some reports on forums of lifting keel boats not being very stable on a mooring with the keel up either. Ours lives in a drying harbour, so that's the only time the keel is up when in the harbour.

The other important message is to learn what all the books DON'T tell you, i.e what to do when something goes wrong. Because I have never seen our particular problem described in print, or indeed even on a forum, it's probably worth describing here.

Our problem was when sailing close hauled in a strong wind and a choppy sea. When trying to tack, main sheeted in tight, the boat would not always complete the turn, ending up stalled head to wind. The wind would push us back and she would turn one way or the other, but with no speed and hence no steerage, she would end up side on the the wind, as I say, with main sheeted in and would then heel over a long way before starting to move and regaining control.

The solution is blindingly obvious now (but as I say I've never seen it described in print) is, if the tack fails, let the main sheet out as she comes round. then slowly sheet in as you regain control and try again.

Learning to sail, particularly without instruction, will no doubt put you in situations that may scare you, but unless you are out in really extreme conditions, the risk of capsize in a ballasted keel boat is very small indeed.

Some tuition, even if informal, is definitely a very good idea.

 

[bbg]

It depends on the boat of course, but to relate a tale ...

I used to teach sailing on small keelboats - Cal 20s. To reassure punters, the sailing school had a policy. Anyone who capsized a boat would receive $1,000 in compensation. And the reassuring part was that they had never had to pay.

They stopped the policy after a season when they realised the boats were being returned damaged by all the punters who were trying to capsize them (and couldn't).

 

[Seajet]

The issue about lift keel boats being unstable with the keel raised just requires a tiny bit of common sense when looking at the design.

Questions to ask oneself ( or the vendor ) include ‘What is the ballast ratio, and where is the weight, on the end of the keel with a good righting leverage, or internal, 4” below the Centre Of Gravity ?”...

I have been on my 22’ lift keeler in F12 gusts on the mooring, keel raised, and F11 squalls under way keel down; these occasions certainly got my attention, but I never worried about her capsizing.

One chap is on record for taking a boat of the same type across the Atlantic with the keel raised most of the way, running before Trade Winds, though I freely admit he’s a braver man than me !

There is a school of thought though that a deep keel may ‘trip a boat over’ in strong following seas, so raising a lift keel actually makes her safer – the sailor's bible ‘Heavy Weather Sailing’ has some comments on this.

As for going transatlantic with the keel up see www.anderson22class.co.uk - ' articles' section.

 

[ianat182]

Slight thread drift for Prodave. The reason your boat would not tack could be nothing to do with the mainsail but the Jib being released too soon. If racing you would lose lots of time and pointing by this ; the better way is to allow the jib to back, to get the bow through the wind, release and draw in the jib on the other tack but not hard in until she gathers way. The other reason could be that too little of the centreboard is down for a tight tacking manoeuvre.

In a sailing dinghy the more vertical the centreboard the faster and tighter the tacking 'circle' will be; if the centreboard is raised even by a 1/3rd this 'circle' will be larger and the speed of tack much slower,1/2 board and worse still.
This also is one reason for the board to be raised at least 1/3rd when reaching and gybing as it allows the hull to 'slide' more slowly as the boom passes across and the boat balanced as crew weight and sail/boom pressures are moved.

The centreboards mentioned here are of the pivoting type, the daggerboard form will not change the speed of tack if partially raised, but of course pointing will be affected to some extent.

ianat182

 

[mjcoon]

... When the boat heels some people think it is a precursor to falling over.

Years ago I sailed from Southampton to IoW in a crew that included newlyweds. He was a sailor, she hadn't sailed before. As soon as the yacht heeled the wife demanded that as when we reached IoW they would return home on the ferry. I don't think that there was any seasickness; it was all too sudden for that.

I'm afraid I never knew if she recovered from that experience to venture on a yacht again. Or whether some gentle preparation could have made it less alarming and allayed that initial panic.

Mike.