Can someone explain radar to me please...

[lustyd]

I have B&G throughout and agree with Paul. If your needs are basic it’s ok but at least half the functionality doesn’t actually work in the real world. An example I had to turn off WiFi sync because it wiped the data from the plotter and lost all my tracks.

Not even a response from Navico support, aside from banning me from a forum for mentioning it.

 

[PaulRainbow]

It wasn’t long ago that the MFDs didn’t have the WiFi built in, certainly for Raymarine, so it was probably worth a mention if only to highlight that some plotters need additional routers to make it work. No longer a manufacturer thing I agree but worth looking out for if going second hand.

That's really two different issues. Modern wifi doesn't replace wired Ethernet, which needs a router if you exceed 2 or 3 devices on the network. Even with modern MFDs the wifi is still limited, the bulk of networking is Ethernet or N2K (in various guises) Wifi is mostly useful for updates , MFD mirroring or syncing.

But yes, if you go past 8-10 years with second hand, you need to be careful of the existence or capability of wifi. Personally, i'd buy a new MFD, other stuff can be 2nd hand as long as not too old.

 

[requiem]

This sounds exactly like what the Raymarine Axiom can do, as far as I understand it- WiFi mirroring via an app, AP can only be controlled via the MFD or control head.

One difference is that on B&G boats I've been able to consume the NMEA feed over the wifi, the Raymarine built-in wifi does not expose it and thus you'd need a separate wifi gateway if you want to use anything beyond the mirroring app. (For me this was a significant annoyance.)

 

[Dockhead]

This sounds exactly like what the Raymarine Axiom can do, as far as I understand it- WiFi mirroring via an app, AP can only be controlled via the MFD or control head.

Let's use terms precisely -- "Mirroring" just means you can see what's displayed on the MFD, but not control.

I haven't used Axiom, but ChatGPT and Paul Rainbow both say that the Axiom offers full remote control over a tablet connected by wifi, other than autopilot.

Current Navico systems let you mirror from phones and remote control only from tablets.

 

[Sea Change]

But yes, if you go past 8-10 years with second hand, you need to be careful of the existence or capability of wifi. Personally, i'd buy a new MFD, other stuff can be 2nd hand as long as not too old.

That's what I'm leaning towards: new MFD, secondhand radome.
You mentioned earlier that I'd still need some sort of converter to integrate everything. Are we just talking cables or is it a bit more complex than that? And for the radar, is it just a case of radome + compatible MFD, or are there any extra components in there?

 

[Dockhead]

I work with this every day and can confidently say that i see more issues with modern Navico kit than anything else, they have never been particularly good and their customer service has always been the worst. So much so, i will not supply it. Raymarine service is much, much better than it was and Garmin is exemplary.

Could be. I defer to your wider experience.

Navico is infuriating at times. Customer service is hit or miss -- mostly dreadful, eternal waits and then unhelpful people with zero knowledge, but if you call enough you will eventually get a real engineer who will be a goldmine of information. Many others report this same experience.

I just replaced all of my electronics last year, and I would have gone with Furuno except that I have an H5000 sailing computer and other racing-oriented gear which wouldn't work with it. So I reluctantly re-upped with B&G. I'm actually fairly pleased with the new kit which has corrected a lot of the weaknesses of the original generation of Zeus plotters which I had before. The radar, which wasn't bad before except for an absolutely horrific, almost comedic implementation of MARPA, has been dramatically improved with an actual ARPA system like Furuno's, which works brilliantly. The HALO radars are first class. And the Zeus 3S plotter has a much better user interface with more hardware buttons and less need for touch controls -- again, like Furuno.

I'm just waiting for the first big disappointment from Navico -- your device is no longer supported or some crap like that, which is typical of them. But so far it's not too bad.

I do have a problem opening chart information objects which no amount of manual-gazing or Internet research has been able to solve. I am going to have to call customer service, which I keep putting off because I know it will be infuriating.

 

[st599]

That's really two different issues. Modern wifi doesn't replace wired Ethernet, which needs a router if you exceed 2 or 3 devices on the network.

Why would this need a router? Surely you want them to all be on the same network, so you can use a layer 2 switch?

 

[Dockhead]

One difference is that on B&G boats I've been able to consume the NMEA feed over the wifi, the Raymarine built-in wifi does not expose it and thus you'd need a separate wifi gateway if you want to use anything beyond the mirroring app. (For me this was a significant annoyance.)

Can you connect via Ethernet and get that data?

I use OpenCPN on a Linux minicomputer with a big screen and raster charts for actual navigation, and I'm actually getting my NMEA data from a wifi connection to one of my B&G plotters and it works fine. With the previous kit, I always used Ethernet for this, which works more reliably with the radar -- you can control a Navico (and some other brands) radar with the OpenCPN plug-in. I've got some driver problem (naturally, it's Linux after all) which has kept me from doing it so far with the new system.

 

[wonkywinch]

That's what I'm leaning towards: new MFD, secondhand radome.
You mentioned earlier that I'd still need some sort of converter to integrate everything. Are we just talking cables or is it a bit more complex than that? And for the radar, is it just a case of radome + compatible MFD, or are there any extra components in there?

I'd be really careful about second hand mechanical stuff. To answer your question though, take a look at the manufacturers websites for installation manuals for any of the products you are considering. For example, older B&G 4G radars had an interface, the newer Halo doesn't, it plugs into the chart plotter (via a network expansion port/switch in my case as I have several devices).

 

[capnsensible]

Pay peanuts, get a monkey.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Let's use terms precisely -- "Mirroring" just means you can see what's displayed on the MFD, but not control.

Depends which manufacturer you're listening too.

I haven't used Axiom, but ChatGPT and Paul Rainbow both say that the Axiom offers full remote control over a tablet connected by wifi, other than autopilot.

I did not say that. as i'm not 100% certain of the Raymarine app capabilities with autopilot. The have messed around with their apps so much it's hard to keep track of some of it. The Garmin app will mirror the MFD with full control of th autopilot, if the autopilot was controllable from the MFD. It can also be used as a stand alone chart plotter.

Current Navico systems let you mirror from phones and remote control only from tablets.

I can fully control the MFD, including the autopilot from my phone.

 

[PaulRainbow]

That's what I'm leaning towards: new MFD, secondhand radome.
You mentioned earlier that I'd still need some sort of converter to integrate everything. Are we just talking cables or is it a bit more complex than that? And for the radar, is it just a case of radome + compatible MFD, or are there any extra components in there?

Radar just connect to the MFD with an ethernet based cable and a power cable.

To connect older Seatalk stuff, like ST60s etc you need a Seatalk to STNG converter. Raymarine SeaTalk ng to SeaTalk 1 Converter Kit - E22158
Red and black cable goes to power, Seatalk goes to the yellow socket, the two white sockets are STNG/N2K. The two blue sockets are terminators, leave one out and fit a STNG to N2K backbone cable, connect N2K Tees to this cable, then terminate it. STNG devices can be plugged into the white sockets, N2K can be plugged into the tees, need more devices add more tees.

 

[requiem]

Can you connect via Ethernet and get that data?

I use OpenCPN on a Linux minicomputer with a big screen and raster charts for actual navigation, and I'm actually getting my NMEA data from a wifi connection to one of my B&G plotters and it works fine. With the previous kit, I always used Ethernet for this, which works more reliably with the radar -- you can control a Navico (and some other brands) radar with the OpenCPN plug-in. I've got some driver problem (naturally, it's Linux after all) which has kept me from doing it so far with the new system.

Good question! After thinking for a moment, I've no idea. My (baseless) assumption is that wifi and ethernet would expose the same data, suggesting that Raymarine kit might only expose it via Seatalk.

Is it correct to assume that with your setup (you may have mentioned it already) you can also drive the autopilot from OpenCPN?

 

[wonkywinch]

Posted in error

 

[The Q]

I could explain radar to you, but that's not the answer you want.
Home | RAF Air Defence Radar Museum

 

[wonkywinch]

I could explain radar to you, but that's not the answer you want.
Home | RAF Air Defence Radar Museum

With suggested reading tonight - Most Secret War - R V Jones

Real life cloak & dagger with the newly designed magnetron being smuggled in briefcases across the Atlantic from MIT in Boston and Operation Biting to recover enemy tech from one of the first radar stations at Bruneval.

 

[Sea Change]

Pay peanuts, get a monkey.

Well, maybe, but I don't think I've got the budget to do everything brand new.
Fortunately lots of people seem to like this stuff and want to upgrade to the latest gear, so there is lots of apparently perfectly functional gear for sale.

At the moment I have no radar or plotter. Pretty much anything is an upgrade as far as I'm concerned!

 

[Sea Change]

Radar just connect to the MFD with an ethernet based cable and a power cable.

To connect older Seatalk stuff, like ST60s etc you need a Seatalk to STNG converter. Raymarine SeaTalk ng to SeaTalk 1 Converter Kit - E22158
Red and black cable goes to power, Seatalk goes to the yellow socket, the two white sockets are STNG/N2K. The two blue sockets are terminators, leave one out and fit a STNG to N2K backbone cable, connect N2K Tees to this cable, then terminate it. STNG devices can be plugged into the white sockets, N2K can be plugged into the tees, need more devices add more tees.

I'm not planning on using any older gear. My existing Raymarine stuff is all 'i' series using STNG*

*with the exception of the autopilot which currently is older, but I have the newer one with a p70 head ready to install.

** oh and my AIS is 0183 so I know I will need a converter there

 

[Sea Change]

So one option seems to be to buy a new Axiom MFD for about $1k, and a secondhand RD series radome for <$300. That's the kind of budget I can stomach, and justify. And it keeps everything Raymarine although I don't think that's really essential.

Downsides: the Axiom is touchscreen only. The WiFi functionality of Raymarine stuff seems a bit questionable.

Alternatively, there are plenty of E-series and even C-series devices knocking around secondhand, but they look antiquated. Better than nothing though, right? I'd have to find another way to integrate WiFi but that might not be such a bad thing?

 

[Lucky Duck]

Assuming these are the ‘classic’ plotters the they will most likely need an analogue radar which at one point were going for inflated prices as anyone with one of those plotters and a broken radar faced either paying more or having to replace both the (now digital) radar and the plotter

I had one of the replacement C series which wasn’t touch screen but the software was clearly designed for the E series which did and that was a pain to use until I bought a tablet to control it using their app.