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I imagine, react in the same way as to a friend or family member who is is a wheelchair user and wants to go sailing.
Can I Offer a Day Out on My Boat As a Raffle Prize?
- Thread starter Habebty
- Start date
I imagine, react in the same way as to a friend or family member who is is a wheelchair user and wants to go sailing.
A1Sailor
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Didn't realise the OP's boat was able to accommodate the disabled/wheelchair users...
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Generally, disclaimers are worthless.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Covered by the The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998.
Here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2771/regulation/2/made
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AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
+1
In fact, they can be worse than useless if not written by expensive lawyers. And there are quite a lot of things - most of which are relevant to this situation - that you are simply not allowed to disclaim.
The advice I was given was that it was better to have a precise statement of what you ARE providing, with clear indications of what that implies for the user.
IANAL!
But as I understand it,
"No responsibility can be taken for sea-sickness or other injury"
Is likely to be unenforceable and struck down by a judge as both situations can arise from negligence,
BUT
"Sailing involves going out to sea, and therefore there is a risk that participants may be affected by motion sickness (sea-sickness). It also involves physical activities involving moving equipment. Participants should therefore a) take medication for motion sickness if they believe they are likely to be affected by this, and b) be aware that they must be ready to move quickly and obey instructions given by the boat's captain. A safety briefing will be given and any instructions given during this briefing regarding use of safety equipment must be complied with."
Would be OK, as it doesn't try and restrict liability, but clearly states where responsibilities lie.
WestWittering
Well-Known Member
The reason we used disclaimers were to make people properly aware that a 'try dive' in a swimming pool was not without risk. They also completed a medical questionnaire. It is the responsibility of the instructors to keep the divers safe and the responsibility of the divers to properly understand what those risks were, to follow instructions and to be aware of the possible consequences. As the disclaimers were drawn up by an American company, they were pretty watertight.
The only real reason I can see for a disclaimer in the OPs case is so that if something was to happen, a judge or jury would be able to see that a participant was aware of the risk & chose to do it anyway. In a worst case scenario, this would reduce compensation. It does not mean that once the disclaimer was signed that the OP had a reduced duty of care. If we were really to get into it, a method statement & proper risk accessment, with everyone to sign that they had read it would be belt & braces. Not a legal requirement in this case, but it would show that the skipper had given due consideration to the comfort & safety of the 'crew' and gone above and beyond to keep people safe.
Never, even as a paying student of a sailing company have I experienced anything like the above as a customer. But it does not mean it would not be a good idea IN THIS INSTANCE. People with an interest in sailing will be aware of some of the risks. Mr & Mrs Jones & the mini Jones, will generally have no idea. The OP is probably used to have a crew who are willing & able to act responsibly. The general public - well, different kettle of fish entirely......
One person died & three people were injured just because the driver & his passenger could not agree which type of takeaway to have..... Following the risk assessment, the method statement for getting a meal would state walk to the chippy & don't cross any roads on the way & don't go behind the counter & stick your head in the boiling oil & don't suck the change & take heatproof gloves to carry the food home & don't eat the wooden fork & chew before swallowing .....
Di
The only real reason I can see for a disclaimer in the OPs case is so that if something was to happen, a judge or jury would be able to see that a participant was aware of the risk & chose to do it anyway. In a worst case scenario, this would reduce compensation. It does not mean that once the disclaimer was signed that the OP had a reduced duty of care. If we were really to get into it, a method statement & proper risk accessment, with everyone to sign that they had read it would be belt & braces. Not a legal requirement in this case, but it would show that the skipper had given due consideration to the comfort & safety of the 'crew' and gone above and beyond to keep people safe.
Never, even as a paying student of a sailing company have I experienced anything like the above as a customer. But it does not mean it would not be a good idea IN THIS INSTANCE. People with an interest in sailing will be aware of some of the risks. Mr & Mrs Jones & the mini Jones, will generally have no idea. The OP is probably used to have a crew who are willing & able to act responsibly. The general public - well, different kettle of fish entirely......
One person died & three people were injured just because the driver & his passenger could not agree which type of takeaway to have..... Following the risk assessment, the method statement for getting a meal would state walk to the chippy & don't cross any roads on the way & don't go behind the counter & stick your head in the boiling oil & don't suck the change & take heatproof gloves to carry the food home & don't eat the wooden fork & chew before swallowing .....
Di
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
A disclaimer drawn up by an American company would be useless in the UK; the relevant law is different. There are things you CANNOT put in a disclaimer in the UK, and anything that can be interpreted as attempting to offset any of these will result in the entire clause being "struck out".
I have had some (limited!) training in this area, and the advice of the lawyers giving the training was that frankly, very few disclaimers are worth the paper they're written on. They certainly won't protect against negligence or failure in duty of care in any shape or form. So, for example, taking people who are not within the ambit of "friends and family" out on a boat not equipped to MCA coding standards COULD be interpreted by a court as negligent or a failure in duty of care, even if there is no legal requirement for the boat to be so equipped. The court might decide that there was an existing standard for safety which had not been adhered to. I agree this would be an extreme interpretation of the law, but it isn't an impossible one if someone was shown to have been injured or died because the boat wasn't equipped to those standards.
Brightwork
Well-Known Member
In short, been there, done it - never ever again!
Hint; You have no control over who will win the raffle. Think very carefully about that one issue.
Hint; You have no control over who will win the raffle. Think very carefully about that one issue.
WestWittering
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I should have mentioned they were tailored for the UK. PADI is quite good at what they do.
Di
jac
Well-Known Member
That sounds like the beginning of an interesting story.
Wansworth
Well-Known Member
Here in Spain the fishermen used to take all and sundry out on their boats on the day of the Fiesta de Carmen and had been for eons.......then a silly boy fell overboard and broke his leg .The parents sued the fisherman.That ruleing has affected history as now fishermen dont offer this coluorful event.Of course the boats where not equiped with life rafts of life jackets.I supose its another sign of the silly times we live in.
mil1194
Well-Known Member
VERY good point. Hadn't considered that. You may have Mr Blobby as the winner - or worse.......
mil1194
Well-Known Member
We were in deepest darkest Turkey nearly 10years ago and just sat on the 'docks' watching the fishermen etc - next thing we (2guys on holiday) were whisked away for an hour or two - they spoke no english, we spoke no turkish but was a fantastic few hours. Very grateful we were too. Exchanged cash for fish when we got back - we didn't want the fish really but they wouldnt take anything for our entertainment which seemed a bit wrong.
claymore
Well-Known Member
Did I really deserve to be refered to in such a disparaging, dispespectful manner for expressing a reasonable opinion?
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
+1
I'm not sure which is worse the personal attack, or the rest of the post comprised of waffle, conjecture and guesswork. Simply cutting and posting the actual legislation would have been quicker, shorter & more accurate. YBW at its very worst.
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Seajet
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+2 ! I thought it quite unnecessary, especially as the OP was seeking advice; apparently those suggesting caution - AND checking with insurers - got it wrong, we should have said ' yeah go for it, and turn up naked ' !
skip50
Well-Known Member
I have checked with my insurers (Yachtmaster) and they are quite happy for me to do this. It is in a charity auction not raffle, so at least whoever 'wins' does actually want to go sailing. Could be different with a raffle.
A1Sailor
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In this case it is a Charity Auction also, although the OP states he is providing a raffle prize. A "prize" which is auctioned would be better, as you say.
Mudisox
Well-Known Member
I was asked and agreed to provide a prize of a day out for 4 people on the boat for a charity auction. Lovely people and became friends, we just haven't met before. No problem with my insurer although they also allow the boat to be used as a Committee Boat for the local yacht club without extra cost. Haven.
dharl
Well-Known Member
Am sure it has been said a million times, but check with your insurers first. In most cases I am sure that there would not be an issue. Also would ensure that you do have another friend with you who can assist you to run the vessel.
With regards to the MCA and how they see these items below is a part reprint from MGN280 which covers the Coding of vessels. Section relates to defintions. :-
++
“Pleasure vessel” as defined in the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004, means;
(a) A vessel which -
(I) is owned by an individual, and
(ii) At the time it is being used –
(as) is used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner, and
(bb) is on a free voyage or excursion;
++
Where it mentions Owner, family or friends it is inferring that the Owner knows the people who are skippering or running the vessel. It means that you have not just let some strangers take your boat out (which would imply Charter or hire taking place).
and also this section:-
++
In this definition, “free voyage or excursion” means a voyage or excursion in respect
of which -
(a) subject to paragraphs (b) and (c), no money is paid, and no goods or services are
provided, by any person;
(b) the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may pay money, or provide
goods and services, to any person; and
(c) the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may only receive -
(i) money for, or in connection with, the operation of the vessel or the carrying of any
person in the vessel as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the
vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion, or
(ii) goods and services which are used or provided on the vessel during the voyage or excursion.
++
most of all enjoy the trip!
With regards to the MCA and how they see these items below is a part reprint from MGN280 which covers the Coding of vessels. Section relates to defintions. :-
++
“Pleasure vessel” as defined in the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004, means;
(a) A vessel which -
(I) is owned by an individual, and
(ii) At the time it is being used –
(as) is used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner, and
(bb) is on a free voyage or excursion;
++
Where it mentions Owner, family or friends it is inferring that the Owner knows the people who are skippering or running the vessel. It means that you have not just let some strangers take your boat out (which would imply Charter or hire taking place).
and also this section:-
++
In this definition, “free voyage or excursion” means a voyage or excursion in respect
of which -
(a) subject to paragraphs (b) and (c), no money is paid, and no goods or services are
provided, by any person;
(b) the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may pay money, or provide
goods and services, to any person; and
(c) the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may only receive -
(i) money for, or in connection with, the operation of the vessel or the carrying of any
person in the vessel as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the
vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion, or
(ii) goods and services which are used or provided on the vessel during the voyage or excursion.
++
most of all enjoy the trip!