Calling ferro boat builders

[daveyjones]

I am about to begin work on a 40 ft ferro Colin Archer ketch. I would be interested in doing some volunteer work on someone else's project, in order to get some experience. I would be particularly interested in helping on plastering day, but if you need help with your welding or wire-tying that's ok!

I live in Rochester (Kent, UK) but would be willing to travel within reason. I will pay my own expenses and provide my own accommodation in the form of a camper van. I am self-employed (electrician) so am flexible as to time.

 

[pjohnson]

Can't offer you the assistance with plastering as you are too far away and don't know much about boat building, but would suggest that more than one person assists with the rendering/cement plastering of the hull. Doing a section at a time would create a weak point unless someone can tell me different????? and you would have to be extremely fast to render/plaster a complete hull on your own in one go unless you use a retarding agent but that may affect the integrity of the cement.

Please note that this is the opinion of someone with building experience and not a boat builder.

 

[LittleShip]

Many years ago I was involved in the plastering day of a 60 odd foot yacht, which I was told was the largest Ferro boat built at the time.
There were about 30 people involved on the day with 5-6 plasterers, we started at 07.00hrs and finished the whole boat in one day ending at approx 22.00 hrs I have never been involved with anything like it since and will not do it again I was Kna........... very tired.
My advice
1. It all has to be done in one day, you cannot join it as stated this would build in weakness
2. You cannot have enough people there
3. You must find somebody who has undertaken this task in the past.

Apart from that Ferro gives great lines and it take 80 years to cure and a further 80 to return to its original state. Good luck with the project.

 

[silverseal]

I have been involved in a number of ferro boat projects because I used to be a cement works chemist!
On "plastering" days there needs to be a number of genuine plasterers, and probably a greater quantity of "stuffers". The stuffer wears gloves and stuffs the concrete mix thro the mesh from the inside, whilst the plasterers, fair off the hull from the outside.
Two items are particularily important, the mix design and control of water/cement ratio, and the thickness of the concrete, as it must encapsulate all mesh, specially the chicken wire, which if not properly covered will corrode and then weep.Yes I was based in Rochester, Kent.
I strongly advise talking to as many people as possible who have built ferro cement yachts, and get as much experience as possible, before taking the plunge - employ professional plasterers, and an army of volunteers, who seem to accept either beer tokens or beer in liquid form

 

[fluffc]

Don't supply beer on plastering day! (Beer tokens preferential)

 

[daveyjones]

While I appreciate you all taking the trouble to reply, I would have appreciated even more, you taking the trouble to read my original message carefully. Why is it that the mention of ferro triggers a lot of advice from people who often are not speaking from experience? To repeat: I would like to hear from people actually building ferro boats now, who could use some help in their work - the benefit to me is the opportunity to see the construction proces at first hand, before I start work on my own boat.

 

[clyst]

Dont see many people who have the experience replying!!!! People are only trying to be helpful dont be too critical and bloody ungrateful !!!

 

[Ships_Cat]

Why is it that the mention of ferro triggers a lot of advice from people who often are not speaking from experience?

Don't know about the UK, but here in NZ where building in ferro used to be very popular a couple of decades ago I do not know of any built in recent years (possibly been a few though, I guess), people prefering other materials.

The only ferro boat I have seen under construction in the last 10 years (but I don't go looking for them) is in Oz, and that was sitting in a field - probably abandoned as it does not seem to have progressed in the last 18 months.

Perhaps, if the same in the UK, that is why you are not getting the replies you hoped for?

John

 

[Joe_Cole]

Dave,

I don't think that giving people a bollocking because they don't have the experience you are looking for is a good way to get the best out of this forum.

I know that it's not what you want to hear but my advice (based on observation, not experience) is that you should think very seriously about making a ferro boat. They are notoriously difficult to sell and many insurance companies simply won't touch them. Like it or not, that may tell you something about them.

Of course, it's your decision.

 

[LittleShip]

Hmmmmm !! Thats one off my Christmas card list and so early in the year.

 

[Sheerline]

One of the websites I check out has a ferro 23 footer for sale "professionally built in NZ: $5000 or make an offer". Adjacent to it are two other 23 foot boats: a production grp for $16k and a west system racer for $28k. It's pretty clear ferro boats are not attractive on the second hand market. When building a boat, the cost of the hull material is reasonably small when engine/rig/foils/deck equipment/labour etc are all tallied up. I think there's a pretty good reason why it's hard to find anyone who is building a ferro boat in 2005.

 

[webcraft]

http://www.ferroboats.com/ has a forum - it might be worth posting on there. You will tend to find more opinions than boats on this forum . . .

If you can get hold of The First Ferro Boat Book (Pete Greenfield) it might be worth a read - I enjoyed it, although my ambitions to build a ferro boat are now firmly in the past.

Personally I still believe that ferro offers the greatest opportunity for the home builder to get a bigger boat for less. As far as I can see most of the doom-mongers have no personal experience and are only parrotting what they have read because it makes them feel better about their own choices/compromises.

Good luck with your project.

- Nick

 

[daveyjones]

You are right in saying that ferro boats do not sell for the same price as other materials. As far as insurance goes, Robin Knox Johnston is quoted as saying that the reason insurers don't like them is because they go much further offshore, the owners having more confidence in them. You would find it difficult to insure any boat to say, single-hand round Cape Horn.

Personally, neither the resale value (I didn't get into sailing to make a profit or even save what money I started with) nor the insurance difficulties ( I only ever have third-party insurance anyway) are part of the equation.

The few people I have spoken to who have actually built ferro boats, as opposed to reading or hearing about them, invariably say that it was a huge amount of work and that they would never do it again. This reaction, however, comes from people building boats in any material! Ferro builders also admit that, while it was a lot of work, they ended up with a good boat that took them long distances in safety.
I have researched this whole question for some years before deciding to go ahead with building in ferro, and I am convinced that a lot of the prejudice against the material is just that, prejudice. Good and bad boats are built in all materials - as always, the standard of work, the basic design, and the quality of materials is crucial. I have seen ugly unseaworthy boats in all other materials. Ferro got a bad press early on because of many shoddy projects, and also because the technique was not well understood. We should respect these pioneers and learn from their mistakes if appropriate. If there is a dearth of builders, perhaps in the modern world there is simply not enough time to spend 6 years boatbuilding, or maybe people are rich enough now to buy boats, whereas in the 70's they were not.
I have no interest in going to sea in a boat I haven't built myself, which cuts down my options somewhat, but as I happen to enjoy building as much as sailing it becomes a labour of love not of duress.
My exasperation in hearing the usual commments about ferro stems from the fact that they are usually not based on the personal experience of the person giving the advice (NB I did say "usually", not "always"). It would not occur to me to advise anyone about anything were I not in a position to do so from my own experience. The obvious problem with doing that, is that it perpetuates myths and inaccuracies. I am referring not only to this series of postings but also to several others in the past, on this site and others.
It is not asking a lot to seek directions from someone who has gone down the road you wish to travel, but if you ask the way from someone who is moving in a different direction and who hasn't actually been where you are going, you do well to be sceptical when they give advice.
Perhaps the genuine ferro builders are too busy in the boatyard to look at web forums. Incidentally I thought the use of bad language was frowned upon here?

 

[daveyjones]

Thanks for that, a breath of fresh air! You are right about the imbalance of experience and opinion on this forum. The book you mentioned is < I think, a bit dated now, and Colin Brookes (Hartley and Brookes) has refined and developed the method based on many years of experience. Why didn't I think of the forum on the ferro website? I'll go there now!

 

[Joe_Cole]

Dave,

I have just had a quote for insurance for my boat. The company (Noble Marine) made it clear that they would not insure a ferro boat under any circumstances. Not even inshore UK third party. I don't know why but there must be a reason.

Beyond that you've obviously made up your mind to proceed and I wish you well with your project I'll be delighted when you are in a position to tell all the sceptics (including me) "I told you so". /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Ships_Cat]

I personally know of a number of boats currently being build by people for themselves in steel and composites (and many more over the last 10 years), but have not known of even one for many years in ferro. So your assumption about people's time in the '70's and now does not stack up at least here.

You will find that ferro owners, just like many owners of vessels constructed in other materials, will defend their choice of material and will be unlikely to criticise it. Ferro, being an orphan material, probably cultivates even more defensiveness from its owners than others. Taking note only of what ferro owners tell you is taking a position that you only want to hear good things about your own choice.

I think a cold pragmatic look at ferro shows that the decision to build in it is driven by emotion rather than sense. It does not stack up financially (you can only build a cheap boat in it if you fit it out cheaply - hull cost is a small proportion of any well fitted boat's total build cost), and there are better materials to build from.

Clearly people are allowed to build boats driven by emotion, after all pleasure boat ownership is mainly romance rather than pragmatism. But you do yourself a disservice in the eyes of others if you criticise those that point out to you the practical disabilities of ferro.

John

 

[daveyjones]

During my research on ferro I contacted several insurance companies and was told that third-party insurance would be no problem. However you raise a valid point and I will certainly check again in case their attitudes have changed. Thanks.

 

[daveyjones]

All the ferro owners I have met show no trace of defensiveness, rather a sort of quiet smugness at having a strong safe boat. I am very wary of pointless criticism; when I had a wooden boat there was no shortage of people telling me how useless they were. When I had a GRP boat I had the same from wooden boat owners. Every time I meet a motor - boat owner they tell me, unprompted, how awful sailing yachts are, so on ad nauseam. That's how thing go in the yachting world, it seems to generate snobbery on a massive scale, which is why I pay more attention to those who have actually done it. What impresses me about ferro owners I have met is their disinclination to criticise other types of construction. This suggests to me that they are very happy enjoying their boats and feel no need to put anyone else's choice down.

I have no doubt that if I get my ferro boat built, then every time I go into a marina the skipper of the next-door boat will spend a long time telling me I would be better off with wood/GRP/steel/aluminium.

Referring to your entirely valid comment about the relative cost of building in ferro, I can only repeat that the resale cost of such a boat is of no relevance to me at all. This will be my last project and if it stays afloat and I continue to live, it will not be sold. Look at it this way: to buy the type of boat I intend to build will cost at least £120,000, assuming I could find one to that specification(which I haven't been able to do so far). Even then it would need modifying to my own needs. For £40 - 50,000, and some years of work (which is my hobby anyway ), I will have a boat in which every nut and bolt is known , is new, and is designed to my own requirements. This looks at the financial picture from a completely different viewpoint. I would not buy a second-hand ferro boat, because I couldn't be properly sure of the quality of construction, but if I build it myself...

All decisions in life are ultimately emotional, no matter how much we pretend to weigh up the facts of the case. I have spent some years researching ferro and am well aware of the strengths and limitations. I do not discount valid criticisms, in fact I value them because they open up new paths for research. What I complain of is criticism based on lack of knowledge or hearsay. This is dangerous because it may influence people new to the subject into making bad decisions for themselves.

By the way, there are several ferro boats in construction within 20 miles of my home, unfortunately the hulls are built and are now fitting out, so too late for me to see the hull construction. There are several more in commission in my local area (Thames Estuary), from 32 to 70 ft, all of which make regular offshore trips.

 

[CharlesM]

ferro boat for 5k and GRP for 15k...

That is so.

When you buy a ferro boat you pay loads less than an equivalent GRP boat. When you sell it you get less than an equivalent GRP one.

I see no loss there...

But then I am biased - buying a 43' ferro for the cost of a 25' GRP.

go figure.

It is probably more a case of labour costs nowadays...

Cheers
Charles

 

[Joe_Cole]

Re: ferro boat for 5k and GRP for 15k...

Absolutely right Charles.

However, in this case it is a new boat which is being made. The boat will cost much the same as if another material were used, but will be worth a lot less. For the first owner it is a poor investment, but it's his decision.