Calling all sailors with young kids in North Wales

[DaveParry]

Having taken the advice of my previous posting and decided to try North Wales for a change from our Clyde cruising ground, I am now looking for somewhere to put her.

We need a marina as we have (3) small children to get on board so don't fancy rowing out to a swinging mooring. Also we have a fin keel so can't take the ground on tidal moorings.

Having looked at the pilot for Anglesey, the only options seems to be Conwy, PD, Holyhead and Pwllheli.

Pwllheli has an 8 year waiting list and Holyhead is a bit far and apparently not very attractive.

If I understand it correctly, both PD and Conwy are only accessible HW +/- 3hrs, and then at Conwy you have a 4 nm trip through the channel to the sea. From PD it looks as if you are committed as soon as you are out of the lock and have to set off to get over the bar or through the Swellies.

Neither seem to suit the option of a 2-3 hour trip out with young ones on board and still be able to get back in again.

Am I missing something? Does anyone else have small kids for whom a 2-3 hour sail might be all they can manage? Where do you sail from? And how? Please enlighten me...

 

[Danny Jo]

If you are looking for 2-3 hour excursions in and out of a marina at any state of tide, then Holyhead is the place for you. There is also an excellent sailing club there. It is a little bit further to travel, but it is all dual carriageway from the M6, with the exception of Britannia bridge. Alternatively there is a very good train service to Holyhead.

 

[pat_detente]

There's also the marina - Victoria Dock - in Caernarfon. I think you have a couple of hours either side of HW to get out. It is quite convenient - a couple of mins walk from the town centre and also v. close to Morrisons and Netto. Think it comes under the jursdiciton of the Caernarfon HArbour master (???)

You don't have to exit the Straits to go anywhere - Abermenai is about half an hour's sail from Caernarfon if you don't fancy tackling the Caernarfon Bar.....It's a beautiful anchorage, (holding not brilliant, but usually sheltered) with lots of beach/space ashore to exercise the little ones.

PD is also quite a nice place to berth. There are swings and things on the green by the dinghy sailing club, and the cycle path also is good for walking. And the Garddfon pub on the green is good....


Look us up if you make it to N. Wales!! We have a swinging morring in Portdinorwic (or at least will have when I've sent the cheque to the harbour master!!!)

 

[pat_detente]

Oh - and I forgot to say_ I agree with Freestyle that Holyhead isn't too bad!!! We have visited a couple of times and taken a visitor's mooring at the sailing club. They operate a water taxi between the club and the moorings, which would make getting kids on and off the boat quite easy...

 

[colvic987]

Hi i have a swinging mooring in the straits, if you did go in at pd, you can still find places to go, down towards carnarfon towards abermenai, no need to dry out, over the bar to llandwyn island, there are moorings outside the lock at pd you can wait on if you have missed your lockin, or through the swellies up towards puffin island, you can make a weekend of it...it depends on your sort of sailing, if it is just a couple of hours then pd would suit you, and there always seems to be space..

 

[Major Catastrophe]

[ QUOTE ]
And the Garddfon pub on the green is good....

[/ QUOTE ]

Shhhh, please. We don't want everybody jostling for their roast beef sarnies every Saturday lunchtime.

 

[[3889]]

Conwy access is HW+/- 3hrs but within 1 hour of HW you can sail straight out/in over the bank on springs. North Wales Cruising Club also run a launch to moorings at Fridays and weekends, available to non members at a premium. There are a lot of River berths alonside detached pontoons which you may prefer to a swinging mooring. Another option at Conwy is to pick the family up at the Beacons Jetty or new fuel pontoon in the town, which have 24 hr access, but very limited waiting allowed.

The SW end of the straight offers reasonable sailing between the Swellies and the Bar if you only want a 3 hour jaunt. Caernarfon marina has a longer waiting list than Pwllheli and I wouldn't recommend Holyhead for the same reasons you give. It can also be a very uncomfortable marina to sleep aboard in N-NW winds.
Having switched to a twin keeler, I am moving to the River Seiont at Caernafon this year but on balance would recommend Conwy for your needs. It's a nice town, NWCC is handy with reasonable membership rates and you have the option of river or marina. Three hours sail will get you to Puffin Island, or round the Orme, and back and two hours each way gets you ashore at Beaumaris for an hour at HW.

 

[CSFenwick]

We've got a 9yo and a 7yo and have been at Conwy Marina for the last 2 years. The tide is a restriction of course but it is at least something you can predict. The marinas at Conwy (and Deganwy) have become very popular with power boats, supposedly the ones that moved down from Windermere 2 years ago and I understand that both are oversubscribed again this year. We’re actually leaving Conwy at the end of the month to berth in Holyhead for this year. The extra driving distance (40 min) is a concern but the marina is all states and unlike Conwy we won’t be stuck in the mud between tides (Conwy marina has a ‘sediment problem’). The sailing on the Holyhead side of Anglesey is also far better (in my opinion) and after two years in the relatively sheltered waters to the E of the island we decided we wanted easier access to the western side and have better access to Cardigan Bay and Ireland. Of course you could argue that South Stack and Carmel Head tidal races form as much a tidal gate for Holyhead as the gate on Conwy marina does but at least you can get in and out as and when you want.

FYI Caernarfon have a 100 boat waiting list so your options are Holyhead (you’ll definitely get in and it’s the cheapest!), Port Dinorwic (have some berths if you can double up), or Conwy/Deganwy but you need to be very quick and get an application in on Monday! (They’re April to March contracts).

 

[DaveParry]

Thanks all for your advice. I didn't realise they had a 'sediment problem' in Conwy, so that's worth knowing.

If you're trying to use as much of the 6 hrs either side of HW, is the flood not a problem if you want to sail (motor?) against it to get out through the channel at HW-3? We only have a little 10hp auxilliary and 4 kts is about the limit. Pickled Pig says 3 hrs gets you to Puffin Island, so to fit the return trip in one tide I'd have to push against peak flood on the way out and peak ebb on the way back.

I guess I am just a bit daunted by the thought of 2 hrs of any trip being the motor out through the channel and back in again (I don't fancy going over the bank at HWSprings until a lot more used to the area!). Using a detached pontoon and the launch sounds okay - but aren't you still restricted to HW+/-3 through the channel anyway?

Keep the advice coming - it is very helpful and I'm interested to see if other people are day sailors too (surely not everyone can have the time and crew to go away over night all the time?!).

 

[CSFenwick]

The tide can run at 4 knots + at springs through the narrows just to seaward of Conwy marina entrance. You'd really want to be able to make 5 knots to feel happy I would have thought. There are no dangers though (except perhaps the power boats!) and once you're through the narrows the current drops off quickly. Three hours is to Puffin is pessimistic but it obviously depends on your attitude to sailing slowly in light winds or motoring. I would say that you do tend to motor a fair amount as the wind is usually on your nose coming out of Conwy. That does mean you can sail a good way back in again but it’s hard not to have the engine on for 2 hours by the time the day has ended.

Advantages to Conwy are proximity by road (from the east), relatively sheltered waters, although because of the strength of the tide they can be exhilarating in winds of F5 and increasingly ‘interesting’ in F6+, especially so with the wrong combination of wind and tide. The weather is a definite bonus – Conwy has a climate all its own and is far sunnier than where I live in Cheshire. We also liked the beach just behind the marina that the kids can play on when we have to be back in the marina early on a Sunday because of the gate times.

Can’t really fault Conwy to be honest. We’ve had two good years and are really moving for a change in cruising ground. The mud problem in the marina can be a pain. Stops us getting out of our berth for 20 min after the gate’s dropped. They are trying to do something about it but have been hamstrung by the green lobby. They did a couple of weeks of blowing air into it over Christmas but it seems to have done little more than move it around. We seem to have less depth now than we had before they had the work done!

 

[[3889]]

My 3 hours to Puffin is return trip time based on 5knts passage making. 4 Knts will give you a 3 3/4 hour trip. You don't need to punch the tide both ways as you can leave/ return 1 hour before/after HW. In prevailing Westerlies you can sail right back into the river, meaning only 50 mins motoring in decent winds. The ebb tide runs for 7 hours so is less fierce than the flood. If you leave the marina as soon as the sill drops you can miss the worst of the flood as the bank outside the river is uncovered and restricts water entering.
I've berthed at Conwy for 5 out of the last 6 years, the other year being at Holyhead. I thought Holyhead would offer better sailing but, other than sailing back and forth in the bay, the tidal gates can be very restricting especially if you want to return the same day. Even with a favourable tide, the stacks and Carmel can produce "interesting" seas which your kids may love or be terrified by. It is a decent base for weekend trips though, making IoM and Dublin only 9 hrs away.
I enquired tentativly about a berth at Conwy marina for this year and was told it wouldn't be a problem. I agree the Orme gives Conwy a favourable micro climate.
Andy

 

[DaveParry]

Andy - Thanks very much for that. I am off up there this afternoon to have a look with a friend who is thinking of joining our syndicate if we move south. I am much more positive now having read your post.

I was thinking that surely it can't be all that bad as there seems to be plenty of people who want to put their boats there - and they wouldn't if a reasonable mix of sailing wasn't possible. I guess there is a fair proportion of mobos though from the earlier comments.

Thanks again and any other similar experiences of the area are welcome. BTW the kids are 7, 5 and 0 and they've all been sailing from 2 months onwards. The youngest and oldest don't mind/enjoy 'interesting' conditions. The middle one is the only one to watch for.

 

[misterg]

I trust your afternoon was pleasant! We have been at Conwy for the last 3 years (on a swinging mooring). If you're not in one of the marinas, parking can be a headache, especially on the Conwy side of the harbour.

There are a couple of shallow places in the channel (in the 'narrows' as you leave the harbour, and between No.4 and 6 buoys) that have ~zero depth (i.e depth of water = height of tide).

We draw less than 1m, and can get in & out pretty much any time other than LWS. I see your boat draws ~1.5m, which is (IMHO) quite deep, but I think the marina gate is still a bigger constraint than the depth of the channel. (It's always satisfying to come back into harbour a metre or more below the marina sill!)

The tide only really runs very strongly in the narrows, and it can be a struggle to get out against the strength of a big spring, but you only have to make a few hundred yards before the estuary broadens out, and the tide drops of to 2-3 knots. Most times we hoist sail here (cos the wind is usually straight on the nose leaving harbour).

We also have kids (8 & 10), and I would agree that there's a dearth of interesting places to visit & return within 2-3 hours, however there's plenty within an overnight trip. Unfortunately, it seems to be important to "go" somewhere for our kids, rather than just sailing for the sake of it.

We also considered Holyhead, but are glad that we didn't go there: The extra travelling, and you really are penned in by the tidal gates N&S unless you are out for a day or more. I hanker after a mooring in the NE part of the Menai Straits, as it's not too much more travelling, yet there are a lot more places to go to within an afternoon's sailing (and the waters are generally very sheltered - it's bliss crossing into the straits from Conwy bay in a brisk NW - all the wind, and none of the waves!)

I'm not trying to put you off (honest!) - just some things to consider.

Andy

 

[ridgy]

I've been at Holyhead for 3 years now and it's perfect for experienced sailors on bigger boats looking for regular trips to Ireland/IoM.

However I wouldn't recommend it in your situation for two reasons.

Firstly, as someone has already said, the seas can be very unpredictable, to the point that you simply won't leave harbour if it's there any north in the wind and/or more than F4. Even now, if I anchor in one of the bays overnight and wake to find it's blowing I get an instant loosening of the bowel!

South Stack and Carmel head aren't the gates that you might think because in the weather that you would go out in, you can go around either at any time as long as you have the tide, although you need to give south stack a wide berth on the ebb.

Secondly if the weather is crap there isn't much to do for young kids ashore and it's a pretty wild and windswept place at the best of times.

I had a mooring in the Straits for two years before that and even at the NE end, in a stiff SW (which seemed to be most of the time) it's not actually that sheltered and rowing out was sometimes a bit dodgy.

I'd vote for Conwy marina because if the weather is nice you have some options and if it's bad, you have some options, mostly that you can always use the boat as a base for land activities.

 

[whipper_snapper]

I would strongly agree, that in your situation, if you have your heart set on leaving the delights of the Clyde for the limited options of N. Wales, then Conwy is much better than Holyhead.

I sailed aboard a big powerful boat based in Holyhead for 2 seasons. On more than one occasion we got the crap kicked out of us when we stuck our heads out in what the forecast said should have been OK but breezy. When it gets nasty, it gets really nasty.

 

[DaveParry]

Thanks again all. I had a good trip up on Saturday, helped by the sunny weather and the kids loved playing on the beach just north of the marina, which got their vote!

In response to whipper_snapper, it's not that I have my heart set on leaving the Clyde; many would see it as a mad move. I posted a vote to see who preferred Clyde or North Wales, but I think most respondants missed the point of the vote - which was balancing The Clyde with a 5 hr+ drive or North Wales without. If I lived half way between the two, it would be the Clyde every time. But I don't, and the journey with the kids is becoming less easy now they don't fall asleep so easily! They still love the sailing, and my priority is to try to keep it that way.

I will post a separate question about springs always seemingly falling when HT is lunch time. I am wondering if this is a local thing or a pattern I had failed to notice before. However it was mentioned to me that this makes neaps a better option if you go out in the morning and back on the next tide in the evening. That could be a possibility.

On the whole, I am more positive having seen the place - but in the sense that you might be more positive about a heart operation if you have a tour of theatre and meet the anaesthatist first! Perhaps that makes it sound a bit extreme, but I will leave Scotland with a heavy heart and convince myself that tide restricted shallow waters sailing on a more frequent basis with the kids is better than almost complete freedom a few times a year - without them.

Life's all about choices. Thanks again to you all for your input. At least it appears I will have sailing friends if I move down.