Buying from Belgium

[EU_Cruiser]

While not being a huge fan of the Dutch Businessperson (PC), the brokers we and three of our friends have dealt with (all different) have been efficient and competent. Good Businesspeople (PC again)? Yes. Crooks? No. However Caveat Emptor in getting a Dutch yard to do repairs/maintenance in your absence - 32 hours labour to fit a hatch, fit two strainers (I did not ask them to fit them but merely to source them), and to winterise and de-winterise a 40' cruiser? Hmmmmm. And the other guys were worse.

 

[petem]

Thanks, I was going to insist on that in the contract but am never sure how strong that is. The broker has shown me a pretty impressive set papers to date so I do not foresee any issues.

Just out of interest, what is there to prove VAT was paid?

 

[BartW]

The broker has shown me a pretty impressive set papers to date so I do not foresee any issues.

I don't know them personally, but the borker / dealer you are dealing with is very experienced AFAIK
so it wouldn't surprise me if there is mention about the financially clean state of the boat, in that set of papers

good luck with the purchase !

 

[rlw]

Regarding the VAT question as long as the boat is registered in Belgium it means that the VAT status has been verified. Otherwhise you cannot get a registration number.
You have to prove VAT status on the application.

 

[BartW]

Regarding the VAT question as long as the boat is registered in Belgium it means that the VAT status has been verified. Otherwhise you cannot get a registration number.
You have to prove VAT status on the application.

theoretically that is correct, but I have one example where I didn't have proove, and another example where I didn't pay vat on the boat, and I got perfectly legally a Belgium registration,

The Karnic, I have bought by my Belgian company from a Austrian dealer, ex vat (Intra community)
Boat is owned by a Belgium VAT registered co, and I 've got a B registration without a problem,
(when I ever sell her in Belgium, I have to charge VAT ofcause, on the remaining value)

Blue Angel, I bought from a Italian co, ex vat in a Belgium VAT registered company.
actually one of the previous owners has paid VAT in Italy, selling the boat from one co to another, but I have no proove of that,
so officially no Vat payed, and I've got a B registration.

but back to the topic here;
IIRC the boat that OP wants to buy, has been sold new to the first owner, by current broker / dealer,
so they can provide clean VAT paperwork

 

[petem]

Regarding the VAT question as long as the boat is registered in Belgium it means that the VAT status has been verified. Otherwhise you cannot get a registration number.
You have to prove VAT status on the application.

Sorry but that counts for little in the UK. Same is true for Spanish registered boats.

 

[thejonesey]

Just out of interest, what is there to prove VAT was paid?

I have seen a pdf of the original purchase bill... as good as the UK I think!

 

[thejonesey]

While not being a huge fan of the Dutch Businessperson (PC), the brokers we and three of our friends have dealt with (all different) have been efficient and competent. Good Businesspeople (PC again)? Yes. Crooks? No. However Caveat Emptor in getting a Dutch yard to do repairs/maintenance in your absence - 32 hours labour to fit a hatch, fit two strainers (I did not ask them to fit them but merely to source them), and to winterise and de-winterise a 40' cruiser? Hmmmmm. And the other guys were worse.

Which broker did you use please? I have been recommended CED.
Rob

 

[Tranona]

Sorry but that counts for little in the UK. Same is true for Spanish registered boats.

You seem to be confused by what constitutes acceptable VAT evidence, perhaps because your views are coloured by what happens in the UK. Here we rely primarily on the commercial invoice for the relevant transaction (or customs receipt if directly imported).

That is simply not the case in most of the rest of Europe where registration of boats is compulsory and registration requires for private boats proof of VAT payment. You will have great difficulty in buying a boat in Europe if you insist on a VAT invoice. Instead you will get official confirmation from the state registry that there are no outstanding VAT issues and the boat is free of any such charges. It can do this because it will have a record of the original VAT payment proof (which for older boats pre 1992 for most states will be confirmation that it is deemed VAT paid).

This is far better proof than the commercial invoice which is all we have in the UK.

Leaving aside the specifics of the Swiss boat you are looking at, you will find a well documented boat from France, Spain, holland, Italy etc to be much more secure than many boats for sale in the UK.

 

[petem]

You seem to be confused by what constitutes acceptable VAT evidence, perhaps because your views are coloured by what happens in the UK. Here we rely primarily on the commercial invoice for the relevant transaction (or customs receipt if directly imported).

That is simply not the case in most of the rest of Europe where registration of boats is compulsory and registration requires for private boats proof of VAT payment. You will have great difficulty in buying a boat in Europe if you insist on a VAT invoice. Instead you will get official confirmation from the state registry that there are no outstanding VAT issues and the boat is free of any such charges. It can do this because it will have a record of the original VAT payment proof (which for older boats pre 1992 for most states will be confirmation that it is deemed VAT paid).

This is far better proof than the commercial invoice which is all we have in the UK.

Leaving aside the specifics of the Swiss boat you are looking at, you will find a well documented boat from France, Spain, holland, Italy etc to be much more secure than many boats for sale in the UK.

I'm not confused at all and fully appreciate the superiority of foreign registers WRT VAT. But the OP should know that to prevent future issues when he comes to resell the boat in the UK that he needs an invoice showing the VAT that was due. The fact that it was on a register that proves VAT was paid is not sufficient. Also worth ensuring that originals of the HIN/CE cert and Bills of Sale or invoices showing ownerahip for the previous 5 years are also included.

 

[petem]

I have seen a pdf of the original purchase bill... as good as the UK I think!

When you say 'bill' do you mean 'invoice'? You need to confirm the original will be supplied as part of the sale and make this a condition of purchase.

 

[Tranona]

I'm not confused at all and fully appreciate the superiority of foreign registers WRT VAT. But the OP should know that to prevent future issues when he comes to resell the boat in the UK that he needs an invoice showing the VAT that was due. The fact that it was on a register that proves VAT was paid is not sufficient. Also worth ensuring that originals of the HIN/CE cert and Bills of Sale or invoices showing ownerahip for the previous 5 years are also included.

I am afraid you are wrong. Just because the original invoice for a boat originally sold in the UK is the normal does not mean that it is the only acceptable proof. You do not "need" any proof at all in a legal sense. It is mainly paranoia that places so much emphasis on the original invoice as there is still no legal requirement to have it. The requirement in respect of VAT is only that in order for the boat to move freely throughout the EU there needs to be proof that VAT has been paid if required. In reality this is rarely an issue, mainly because there is no definitive proof.

You also need to remember that VAT is only the concern of the state where the transaction took place. So a sale in Belgium is just as valid in the UK and no reason why the UK authorities should have any interest in it.

It is not necessary to have BoS or invoices going back 5 years. This is only normally a requirement if you wish to register the boat on the (optional) Part 1.

While all the things you mention are desirable, none of them are a legal requirement and there are thousands of boats in circulation and being bought and sold that do not have some or all of them.

 

[petem]

Everything you say is correct but whether you or I like it or not, that UK paranoia does exist, hence my statement "to prevent future issues when he comes to resell the boat in the UK". If the OP wants to guarantee a future straightforward sale in the UK then he hould have the documents that I referrred to above.

If all he gets is a Bill of Sale from his purchase and a discharge from the Belgium register then that's fine as long as he understands what docs other people may require when he sells it on (particularly if he sells it to someone who wants to Part 1 Reg the boat).

 

[thejonesey]

When you say 'bill' do you mean 'invoice'? You need to confirm the original will be supplied as part of the sale and make this a condition of purchase.

Yes, original invoice and invoices for each new owner too, each stamped and signed.

 

[petem]

Yes, original invoice and invoices for each new owner too, each stamped and signed.

Job's a goodun then!

 

[ian38_39]

Croatia insists that all it's boats have a T2L which lists VAT Status. On inquiry to HMRC this is not acceptable as VAT Paid status in their eyes. As the boat is coming back to the UK then it is the HMRC that needs to be satisfied as far as I can see

 

[thejonesey]

I have got to say that I have bought a few boats now and these guys have been superb. Every request has been answered. We are off to inspect and complete survey and (hopefully) the sale next week. Unfortunately, I will have to wait until April to collect as it is stored in a big shed, as seems to be the case that part of the world.

 

[MapisM]

You seem to be confused by what constitutes acceptable VAT evidence, perhaps because your views are coloured by what happens in the UK. Here we rely primarily on the commercial invoice for the relevant transaction (or customs receipt if directly imported).

That is simply not the case in most of the rest of Europe where registration of boats is compulsory and registration requires for private boats proof of VAT payment. You will have great difficulty in buying a boat in Europe if you insist on a VAT invoice. Instead you will get official confirmation from the state registry that there are no outstanding VAT issues and the boat is free of any such charges. It can do this because it will have a record of the original VAT payment proof (which for older boats pre 1992 for most states will be confirmation that it is deemed VAT paid).

This is far better proof than the commercial invoice which is all we have in the UK.

Leaving aside the specifics of the Swiss boat you are looking at, you will find a well documented boat from France, Spain, holland, Italy etc to be much more secure than many boats for sale in the UK.

Just for the records, it isn't actually true that you would get an "official confirmation", at least not in IT (but I doubt it also for FR and ES - no idea for NL).
I mean, it's a kind of necessary implication, rather than a straightforward confirmation.
Let's take my boat for instance: in her official document, which is somewhat similar to a car registration certificate, it's recorded that the boat was first registered and titled to her first owner.
When I bought her, the competent office registered the transfer of ownership to myself.
BUT, there is no evidence/record in that document of the VAT or price paid, neither when the boat was sold to the first owner, nor to myself.
That is actually recorded in the notary act, which is a prerequisite for the first title and the subsequent transfers, but it's irrelevant afterwards - and there isn't a requirement to keep the original VAT invoice, anyway.

That said, I fully agree with your last statement, because whoever might be interested to buy my boat, based on the registration certificate alone, would have a bulletproof evidence that:
1) she was originally sold by the yard, in a EU Country and to a EU private individual, who paid the VAT on purchase;
2) she was subsequently sold another EU private individual.
And that's more than enough evidence to consider the boat as "VAT paid", just to use a wrong but popular term.
Of course a buyer might still ask an additional discount because I don't have the original VAT invoice, but such request would be as substantiated as asking a discount because of poor weather at the time of the seatrial...
The only sensible objection a buyer could raise is to ask evidence that the boat was never exported outside the EU (and afterwards re-imported) during her life, but aside from the fact that the marina receipts would be enough evidence to support that, it's a case where any tax authority pretending a VAT payment should prove that such export actually happened, to start with.