stelican
Well-Known Member
Easier to instruct the surveyor
Buying boat private sale deposit wont refund
- Thread starter Jpotts
- Start date
Easier to instruct the surveyor
jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
Yep, on reflection, you're right.
volvopaul
Well-Known Member
If the op gives more info I’d like to think we can all help him out , I know many surveyors and I’m sure everyone on here would like to know who the seller is and if it is a scam .
One good think about this forum is that it’s good at flushing out scammers and idiots in the marine industry.
One good think about this forum is that it’s good at flushing out scammers and idiots in the marine industry.
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
The OP explains the reason for reneging on the sale was due to the buyer's own boat sale falling through. Not too sure the buyer has any right to renege here, and it is possible the seller could in law force the sale through. Some form of contract must exist, and that is likely that the seller offered, the buyer agreed and paid a down payment, the seller can force the sale to completion, although that would likely cost him dearly.
That the buyer has reneged and told the seller so, the seller is rightly put out and now realises he needs to put the boat back on the market to move it on. At this stage the boat is still his property so he is entitled, de facto, to offer it elsewhere. At minimum he will be entitled to deduct any reasonable expenses he may meet plus ...
And now a real difficulty for the original buyer possibly arises.
He has agreed to buy the boat for ~£40 k
Such is his commitment that he has made in good faith a part payment of £20 k
The seller has accepted this in the same good faith.
Balance owed and no longer coming is £20 k
So the seller has had his sale cancelled for no valid reason, so he returns to the market, due to the explanation of the buyer, who clearly (to the seller's IMHO reasonable understanding) will or cannot pay the balance the seller is entitled to.
Now back on the market he may find another buyer, but one only willing to pay him £20 k. He takes the £20 k, but still makes his original sale of £40 k.
So in this circumstance is the original buyer who has reneged, entitled to any refund at all ?
As if often the case we have only heard one side of this story, and within that there is a massive problem for the buyer as far as his funds paid are concerned. I hope the buyer will get at least some of his money back, but not sure yet he is entitled to anything at all, and certainly not before the seller has completed a contract elsewhere so he can account to the reneged buyer for the precise details of his 'loss' due to the renege made.
That the buyer has reneged and told the seller so, the seller is rightly put out and now realises he needs to put the boat back on the market to move it on. At this stage the boat is still his property so he is entitled, de facto, to offer it elsewhere. At minimum he will be entitled to deduct any reasonable expenses he may meet plus ...
And now a real difficulty for the original buyer possibly arises.
He has agreed to buy the boat for ~£40 k
Such is his commitment that he has made in good faith a part payment of £20 k
The seller has accepted this in the same good faith.
Balance owed and no longer coming is £20 k
So the seller has had his sale cancelled for no valid reason, so he returns to the market, due to the explanation of the buyer, who clearly (to the seller's IMHO reasonable understanding) will or cannot pay the balance the seller is entitled to.
Now back on the market he may find another buyer, but one only willing to pay him £20 k. He takes the £20 k, but still makes his original sale of £40 k.
So in this circumstance is the original buyer who has reneged, entitled to any refund at all ?
As if often the case we have only heard one side of this story, and within that there is a massive problem for the buyer as far as his funds paid are concerned. I hope the buyer will get at least some of his money back, but not sure yet he is entitled to anything at all, and certainly not before the seller has completed a contract elsewhere so he can account to the reneged buyer for the precise details of his 'loss' due to the renege made.
Jpotts
Member
He already used a surveyor. Could he use that same surveyor to be there for the sale completion? The boat has already been surveyed and was in great condition.
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal
What, JtB knew the amount involved. Huge respect to him.
What, JtB knew the amount involved. Huge respect to him.
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Actually just down the road from me. Not many (relatively) expensive boats there.
I assume it’s a powerboat?
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal
Maybe this is why Petem wrote what he did.
The op stated “but got pressured into handing over a large sum of money by a pushy salesman.”
Maybe this is why Petem wrote what he did.
The op stated “but got pressured into handing over a large sum of money by a pushy salesman.”
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Might I suggest your relative reads the RYA model contract, or even buy the RYA book on buying and selling boats. Then he will know how it should be done and can assess how his verbal agreement and emails stack up against the normal contract.
There is a whole lot missing in your information about what has happened for anybody to give accurate advice. For example what are the documents that go with the boat. We have no idea if the seller actually has title to sell, nor how this title will be transferred.
The sum of money involved is way over the limit for Small Claims If it comes to taking more formal legal action. Suggest your relative once he has the model contract and understands the process, takes that and his account of what is agreed so far including the emails to a solicitor specialising in contract for advice as to where he stands and what alternative courses of action are available to him.
jfm
Well-Known Member
The only way to advise on this properly is to see all the evidence as to what was agreed, and we don’t have that in this thread
There is quite a lot of pub legal analysts is above that is 100% wrong. Eg the seller cannot get a court to force performance of the contract, and contract terms CAN be unreasonable especially in C2C. The UK state does not wipe its citizens bottoms.
Critically, whether it was deposit or part payment the seller has some rights but not an automatic right to keep the £20k. He may only keep -at most- the amount of his reasonably foreseeable (by the buyer) loss.
You cannot pursue a £20k claim in the small claims track. You have to go to the big boys court and that requires great care as to your risk of losing and having to pay your opponents costs. Buckle up.
There is quite a lot of pub legal analysts is above that is 100% wrong. Eg the seller cannot get a court to force performance of the contract, and contract terms CAN be unreasonable especially in C2C. The UK state does not wipe its citizens bottoms.
Critically, whether it was deposit or part payment the seller has some rights but not an automatic right to keep the £20k. He may only keep -at most- the amount of his reasonably foreseeable (by the buyer) loss.
You cannot pursue a £20k claim in the small claims track. You have to go to the big boys court and that requires great care as to your risk of losing and having to pay your opponents costs. Buckle up.
MrB
Well-Known Member
I have been waiting for this reply (insert smiley, thumbs-up emoticon as I cannot) #Legalbadassery
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Jpotts
Member
So further since I messaged last. My relative agreed to go further with the purchase and agreed that he would buy it (mostly due to being scared he would loss the deposit). Since then the seller sent what is so called legit documents on the boat. However the mca certificate had a name that when i searched the port of registry and the name of the vessel a YouTube video came up with a completely different boat from 2013. I also went on the mca website and looked on the list for vessels under 10 metres and the ships rss number from the certificate was no where to be seen on the list.
Based on this can we assume it’s been a scam from the start and if so why would an independent surveyor be stating paperwork and everything is in order with the boat?
Based on this can we assume it’s been a scam from the start and if so why would an independent surveyor be stating paperwork and everything is in order with the boat?
derekbland
Well-Known Member
Do you have the original sales doc? I assume it will have the HIN on it that should match that on the boat. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Boat2016
Well-Known Member
Who arranged the survey? Was it someone you contacted and arranged yourself or someone the seller suggested you use ?
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
What is this mca certificate? It’s not a commercial boat is it? And it would not necessarily be registered on the SSR (small ships register). Even if it was, it’s pretty meaningless as anyone could register it for a small fee. Also I’m surprised that your surveyor has looked at all the ships papers, that’s not normally part of their remit.
As has already been said, unfortunately boats and outboards does have more than its fair share of scammers using legitimate boats details and photos. I’ve sold a few small boats over the years and then seen my photos and details used later by scammers. But don’t write it off just yet as a scam. If you want to pm me the info you have I will make further enquiries on your behalf, I have quite a few local contacts, Shaldon and Teignmouth is just a few miles away from where I live and keep a few boats.
Whatever your relative does now, don’t let him be pressured into paying the balance until you are certain of who he’s dealing with!
As has already been said, unfortunately boats and outboards does have more than its fair share of scammers using legitimate boats details and photos. I’ve sold a few small boats over the years and then seen my photos and details used later by scammers. But don’t write it off just yet as a scam. If you want to pm me the info you have I will make further enquiries on your behalf, I have quite a few local contacts, Shaldon and Teignmouth is just a few miles away from where I live and keep a few boats.
Whatever your relative does now, don’t let him be pressured into paying the balance until you are certain of who he’s dealing with!
Portofino
Well-Known Member
You said earlier a “friend “ as well as the surveyor had a look at it ?
Have you done as far as poss an internet search of the surveyors background ?
Who appointed him in the sense how close was he to the seller ?
What’s the picture quality like he has sent with the report ?
Re MCA ,
SSR has time line it expires ( from memory ) every 5 years .
It’s not compulsory ,so may have lapsed - what’s the date on the cert you have ? - hence no sign NOW on the reg .
Names - should be unique ,but they get round commonality by the cop out “ of [ insert a different place ] .
Eg “ Lady Jane of London “ and “ Lady Jane of Dover “ but the numbers will be different and probably boat types of course if currently reg,d .However if ones lapsed - this one your relative is looking at and paid a deposit / advance it may not show up .or show up as a different boat as the original name and indeed place is available to be used .
Thinking ahead about delivery ,( if you end up proceeding ? ) - why not a few of you go en mass .Set up a date travel down etc
In the morning eye ball and meet the seller for hand over and then instruct the final electronic payment when you literary are sat on it with the keys ,if possible sail away or arrange the transport that afternoon for a lift out .
Ensure enough time for the banks to drop the money in a visible format into the sellers account .
How ever this 1/2 price thing you mentioned earlier sounds suspicious .
Have you internet searched that ,ie found the relative value of others ideally same or at least similar .
It’s just that’s the “ hook “ the lure and with humans greed is never too far away and when it risers judgments get cloudy .
It would not be too difficult for a scammer who,s gone to a reasonable amount of trouble to clone a boat ,with a photocopier to match a SSR name and number and fabricate any other docs .
But you have not said what other docs have arrived or who,s contract version is being used as said it’s diff to comment on the info provided .
I mean how did this elderly relative find the boat ? In the sense how IT savy is he .We know e - mails correspondence has occurred .
As a general rule next time if there is a next time and anybody reading this thread ideally you should go personally to the viewing or send a trusted agent .
Meet the vendor or broker eyeball all the paper work .Check what docs are available before you travel .
If poss build a rapport with the seller if long range ,like ask for some more pics , he will / should pop down etc .
Ask for collection @ the airport or at least assistance in travel once you are in the area .
I flew down Manchester / Bournemouth on a day trip to view a Sunseeker .Factory broker was there @ airport to collect me and dropped me back for the rtn .It all seemed legit ,it was I dropped 10 % deposit by electronic there and then .I met R Braithwaiate and we shaked hands on the deal which included delivery to the SoF .
Scam o meter did not twitch
I flew down to Naples from Stanstead - day trip it , broker arranged airport pick up drop off , had breakfast with him , sea trail , doc check all pre arranged then lunch where we agreed the payment and further works schedule .
I had pics of the broker ,the skipper , brokers bros , went back to the brokers house ,change cars as wife wanted the bigger one as son was playing football with mates and she was the “taxi driver “ So i new his address .
He was known in his “ cousins “ restaurant which had cctv .There was cctv in the marina and airport .
So if necessary at a push I think I had enough to ID him to the authorities if he did a runner with my 10 % or the boat disappeared or the title was fake etc .
Scam o meter - was on but very low reading insignificant, so I went ahead .
3 weeks later flew back and sailed away - Theres obviously elements of trust from both sides ,but the buyer is most exposed .If you or any buyer feels over exposed then it’s time to do it all through a maritime solicitor with escrow accounts etc .
Having said that buying a boat in IT is as straight forward as it can get ,they are all individually compulsory registered ( over a certain L ) and the book is kept on the boat with other port authority docs
Have you done as far as poss an internet search of the surveyors background ?
Who appointed him in the sense how close was he to the seller ?
What’s the picture quality like he has sent with the report ?
Re MCA ,
SSR has time line it expires ( from memory ) every 5 years .
It’s not compulsory ,so may have lapsed - what’s the date on the cert you have ? - hence no sign NOW on the reg .
Names - should be unique ,but they get round commonality by the cop out “ of [ insert a different place ] .
Eg “ Lady Jane of London “ and “ Lady Jane of Dover “ but the numbers will be different and probably boat types of course if currently reg,d .However if ones lapsed - this one your relative is looking at and paid a deposit / advance it may not show up .or show up as a different boat as the original name and indeed place is available to be used .
Thinking ahead about delivery ,( if you end up proceeding ? ) - why not a few of you go en mass .Set up a date travel down etc
In the morning eye ball and meet the seller for hand over and then instruct the final electronic payment when you literary are sat on it with the keys ,if possible sail away or arrange the transport that afternoon for a lift out .
Ensure enough time for the banks to drop the money in a visible format into the sellers account .
How ever this 1/2 price thing you mentioned earlier sounds suspicious .
Have you internet searched that ,ie found the relative value of others ideally same or at least similar .
It’s just that’s the “ hook “ the lure and with humans greed is never too far away and when it risers judgments get cloudy .
It would not be too difficult for a scammer who,s gone to a reasonable amount of trouble to clone a boat ,with a photocopier to match a SSR name and number and fabricate any other docs .
But you have not said what other docs have arrived or who,s contract version is being used as said it’s diff to comment on the info provided .
I mean how did this elderly relative find the boat ? In the sense how IT savy is he .We know e - mails correspondence has occurred .
As a general rule next time if there is a next time and anybody reading this thread ideally you should go personally to the viewing or send a trusted agent .
Meet the vendor or broker eyeball all the paper work .Check what docs are available before you travel .
If poss build a rapport with the seller if long range ,like ask for some more pics , he will / should pop down etc .
Ask for collection @ the airport or at least assistance in travel once you are in the area .
I flew down Manchester / Bournemouth on a day trip to view a Sunseeker .Factory broker was there @ airport to collect me and dropped me back for the rtn .It all seemed legit ,it was I dropped 10 % deposit by electronic there and then .I met R Braithwaiate and we shaked hands on the deal which included delivery to the SoF .
Scam o meter did not twitch
I flew down to Naples from Stanstead - day trip it , broker arranged airport pick up drop off , had breakfast with him , sea trail , doc check all pre arranged then lunch where we agreed the payment and further works schedule .
I had pics of the broker ,the skipper , brokers bros , went back to the brokers house ,change cars as wife wanted the bigger one as son was playing football with mates and she was the “taxi driver “ So i new his address .
He was known in his “ cousins “ restaurant which had cctv .There was cctv in the marina and airport .
So if necessary at a push I think I had enough to ID him to the authorities if he did a runner with my 10 % or the boat disappeared or the title was fake etc .
Scam o meter - was on but very low reading insignificant, so I went ahead .
3 weeks later flew back and sailed away - Theres obviously elements of trust from both sides ,but the buyer is most exposed .If you or any buyer feels over exposed then it’s time to do it all through a maritime solicitor with escrow accounts etc .
Having said that buying a boat in IT is as straight forward as it can get ,they are all individually compulsory registered ( over a certain L ) and the book is kept on the boat with other port authority docs
petem
Well-Known Member
Porto, SSR names don't have to be unique (only Part 1 names do).
As stated above SSR should not be taken as proof of ownership as anyone can apply online to register any vessel.
As stated above SSR should not be taken as proof of ownership as anyone can apply online to register any vessel.
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jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
Have you tried searching the MARS database to see if the ships name/owner corresponds with what you've got on the docs? I'm not saying this is a definitive list (it's not) but it does help build a picture.
henryf
Well-Known Member
Jpotts. You are new to this thread so won't know anything about the people responding.
JFM is the single most respected person on here when it comes to matters of this type so pay very close attention to what he says. Everyone else, myself included, whilst being well intentioned can't be relied up to the same extent.
When you said the boat was re-listed without contact I was immediately worried. You can't just re-list the boat, you have to give the buyer a chance to complete, discuss other options and so on. The immediate re-listing without contact does sound like a scam.
As for completing on the boat moving forwards be very careful.
MCA certificates are only issued to commercial vessels such as charter boats, commercial fishing boats etc. A privately owned pleasure boat won't have an MCA certificate.
In the boating world copies of previous sales invoices are very important because providing they go back to when the boat was new they show Vat has been paid.
Schemes like the SSR (small ships registry) are voluntary for pleasure boats, they don't have to be registered.
I appreciate you have come into this situation when 1 O'Clock has already been half struck but great care needs to be taken moving forwards. Under no circumstances send the balance of payment at this stage.
Seek proper advice from a professional who has access to full paperwork and details including where to whom and how any monies have been sent.
I am worried your relative has been scammed out of £20k
Henry
JFM is the single most respected person on here when it comes to matters of this type so pay very close attention to what he says. Everyone else, myself included, whilst being well intentioned can't be relied up to the same extent.
When you said the boat was re-listed without contact I was immediately worried. You can't just re-list the boat, you have to give the buyer a chance to complete, discuss other options and so on. The immediate re-listing without contact does sound like a scam.
As for completing on the boat moving forwards be very careful.
MCA certificates are only issued to commercial vessels such as charter boats, commercial fishing boats etc. A privately owned pleasure boat won't have an MCA certificate.
In the boating world copies of previous sales invoices are very important because providing they go back to when the boat was new they show Vat has been paid.
Schemes like the SSR (small ships registry) are voluntary for pleasure boats, they don't have to be registered.
I appreciate you have come into this situation when 1 O'Clock has already been half struck but great care needs to be taken moving forwards. Under no circumstances send the balance of payment at this stage.
Seek proper advice from a professional who has access to full paperwork and details including where to whom and how any monies have been sent.
I am worried your relative has been scammed out of £20k
Henry
oldgit
Well-Known Member
Having sold and bought a few bits and pieces over the past 50 years, much of it with folding and sometimes in a hurry, have developed a habit of walking in the other blokes shoes for mile or two . There are always two sides. Still wont go out in an F8 tho
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