Buying boat private sale deposit wont refund

[derekbland]

I am starting to wonder if we are wasting our time unless a full list of events in chronological order is provided rather than a dripfeed. I would want to know dates and what happened? Summary of phone calls, emails? What kind of docs have been provided? Whether it was made clear in any communication that the purchase was subject to the sale of the boat? And, and, and

 

[Boat2016]

The bill of sale says MCA on it, is that what’s being referred to ?

 

[Bouba]

If the boat has been relisted then, posing as a potential buyer, the op should be able to make contact with the seller.
If he accesses that the seller is genuine then he can get enough contact details to at least door stop him to ask about his relatives money. Sometimes it’s more difficult to be ruthless face to face, than it is online.
If it’s a scam then call the police

 

[BruceK]

Having sold and bought a few bits and pieces over the past 50 years, much of it with folding and sometimes in a hurry, have developed a habit of walking in the other blokes shoes for mile or two . There are always two sides. Still wont go out in an F8 tho

The waters get murkier as this thread progresses. I'm not exactly sure where my sympathies should lie at the moment. If it's not a scam then I still think 20k /50% non refundable is an excessive amount and dubious at best.

 

[Portofino]

Porto, SSR names don't have to be unique (only Part 1 names do).

As stated above SSR should not be taken as proof of ownership as anyone can apply online to register any vessel.

Yup ,
When I said this
[ It would not be too difficult for a scammer who,s gone to a reasonable amount of trouble to clone a boat ,with a photocopier to match a SSR name and number and fabricate any other docs .]
Just to clarify a scammer I think would make sure all the T .s where crossed and I ,s dotted re forging docs .

So because for various reasons explained the miss match at the SSR is meaningless .
Infact the inclinometer swings away from scam .

But as said in context of the rest of my post , arrange a face to face on the day of completion sat on the boat .
If that idea is mucked about with by the “ seller “ then the scam o meter starts to move into the danger zone .

But Derick s right without a visual on the dark side of the moon you don,t really know what it gonna look like .Up to now just piece together from what’s drop fed in as we go along ..

 

[Jpotts]

So to give a bit more detail on the situation I cam into with my relative buying the boat.
Emails had been going back and forth between them and I saw the emails, the seller just seems like a pushy kinda guy and maybe wants to sell fast to get another boat himself. The emails seem too in depth about equipment and stuff for it to be a scam in my opinion.
They start to agree that a deposit is what to do through e-transfer to secure the boat for my relative. Only after the money had been sent over did the seller mention its nonrefundable. So that shocked my relative first.

4 or 5 days after this my relatives sale of his own boat fell through when his buyer pulled out at last minute so he had no option but to either delay or pull out of the other buying. Basically the same day he told the seller he possibly couldn't buy, the seller relisted the boat online and wrote a note in the readvert saying "readvertised due to time waster".

So immediately my relative knew he was in a bad situation cos the guy wouldn't respond to him by email or phone that day. He did however call him a day or so later and tell my relative the boat was his still if he wanted it. Which was good to know however still weird he hadn't contacted earlier.

My relative had the boat surveyed by an independent surveyor who said everything was in order and looked in good condition.

They agreed again my relative would buy the boat as he was scared he would loss his deposit, the seller sent through documents as requested by my relative via email. A bill of sale, seafish certificate and MCA certificate.

It was then that I searched the port of registry and the boat name on the mca cert and it showed as a different boat in a youtube video. However, my relative told me the seller owned that boat as well and changed over the name and registration number to the new boat when he got it. Which would make sense typically.

That's everything that I know on it so far. I know the surveyor was independently organized by my relative and had nothing to do with the seller.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Is this (or was this) a commercial fishing vessel?

 

[jrudge]

If he has still not seen it I would get in the car and take a look.

Who found the surveyor ?

 

[Jpotts]

Is this (or was this) a commercial fishing vessel?

I read on the surveyors report that she used to be for commercial fishing but no longer is.

 

[Jpotts]

If he has still not seen it I would get in the car and take a look.

Who found the surveyor ?

My relative found the surveyor independently

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I read on the surveyors report that she used to be for commercial fishing but no longer is.

OK Hence the MCA papers and Seafish cert.

 

[Jpotts]

OK Hence the MCA papers and Seafish cert.

Yeah I mean the surveyor send a thorough report with photos of the boat advertised on a trailer in the yard. As she was supposed to be.

 

[MrB]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

Was the boat offered at a very low price but in a remote location like the North of Scotland to prevent viewing in person? Big deposit to secure bargain?

If so, that is one of the classic scams I am afraid.

Quite the opposite, the boat is in South Devon and the op is in Scotland.

 

[jfm]

I am starting to wonder if we are wasting our time unless a full list of events in chronological order is provided rather than a dripfeed. I would want to know dates and what happened? Summary of phone calls, emails? What kind of docs have been provided? Whether it was made clear in any communication that the purchase was subject to the sale of the boat? And, and, and

Exactly.

From what I can deduce from the drip fed info, I have plenty of sympathy for the seller and I doubt there is a scam. Seller advertises boat; guy agrees to buy it and pays deposit; guy then calls and announces that he intends to renege on the deal; seller says well that’s bad and threatens to retain deposit. Remind me what the seller has done wrong at this point?

In law the buyer can claim and seller should pay back some of the deposit because the seller may only keep an amount to offset his losses, which as yet he probably can’t quantify. So seller is possibly a bit naughty on that point. But that’s all, and doesn’t point (in my view) to a scam.

 

[Jpotts]

Exactly.

From what I can deduce from the drip fed info, I have plenty of sympathy for the seller and I doubt there is a scam. Seller advertises boat; guy agrees to buy it and pays deposit; guy then calls and announces that he intends to renege on the deal; seller says well that’s bad and threatens to retain deposit. Remind me what the seller has done wrong at this point?

In law the buyer can claim and seller should pay back some of the deposit because the seller may only keep an amount to offset his losses, which as yet he probably can’t quantify. So seller is possibly a bit naughty on that point. But that’s all, and doesn’t point (in my view) to a scam.

Before the seller even thought it decent to respond to the buyers emails saying even as little as oh that’s a shame you can no longer buy but deposit is nonrefundable, he readvertised the boat without a single mention to the buyer of why.

He had also asked the buyer to send a deposit of 50% which by the sounds of what people have been saying on here is an reasonable amount to ask from someone. He also waited until the payment had registered in his account before mentioning it is fully nonrefundable. I realize a lot of people are of the opinion that deposits are always nonrefundable but that is not my experience or my families experience when buying cars and such. If my relative would have known it was nonrefundable before sending the money, I guarantee he would not have sent that money without knowing 110% that his own boat would sell.

So yeah I think a good few things the seller did was wrong. Refusing to communicate alone, when engaged in a transaction is bad enough.

 

[Bigplumbs]

If he has still not seen it I would get in the car and take a look.

Who found the surveyor ?

Agree totally less chatting and emailing more looking.................... Stop fannying around

 

[Bigplumbs]

Somehow find the other £20K and travel to Devon and buy the boat. This is a practical, sensible solution with less theory and legal talk. Then sell your relatives boat when you can to get back the £20K do the purchase in person at the boat don't send the money. Take a couple of people with you for support both moral and if necessary physical.

 

[Lloydroberts]

So, having never seen the boat and before instructing a surveyor he parted with 50%(£20k)?

Is he in the market for a brand new Bentley?

£15k cash.

In all seriousness I'd be taking note of JFM's comments and also considering a chat with a solicitor....everything else is just personal opinions.

 

[Ocean Star]

Before the seller even thought it decent to respond to the buyers emails saying even as little as oh that’s a shame you can no longer buy but deposit is nonrefundable, he readvertised the boat without a single mention to the buyer of why.

He had also asked the buyer to send a deposit of 50% which by the sounds of what people have been saying on here is an reasonable amount to ask from someone. He also waited until the payment had registered in his account before mentioning it is fully nonrefundable. I realize a lot of people are of the opinion that deposits are always nonrefundable but that is not my experience or my families experience when buying cars and such. If my relative would have known it was nonrefundable before sending the money, I guarantee he would not have sent that money without knowing 110% that his own boat would sell.

So yeah I think a good few things the seller did was wrong. Refusing to communicate alone, when engaged in a transaction is bad enough.

What boat is it? I personally wouldn't be taking a deposit from a buyer unless they had physically seen what they wanted to buy - then again I wouldn't have negotiated a deal at that price bracket without proper documentation either. Perhaps some of the behaviour of the seller can be viewed as unusual, but to label it a scam seems a little far fetched at this point. You can't be certain that he didn't use the deposit to fund the purchase of his next boat either - which is not uncommon at all.

Your relative appears to have the means to carry the purchase through - perhaps this is the best action, followed by selling his current boat.

 

[Bigplumbs]

So, having never seen the boat and before instructing a surveyor he parted with 50%(£20k)?

Is he in the market for a brand new Bentley?

£15k cash.

In all seriousness I'd be taking note of JFM's comments and also considering a chat with a solicitor....everything else is just personal opinions.

As is yours. First does he still want the boat. No need to go all legal and paperwork yet and throw money at solicitors. Get the extra £20K if you can, Arrange with the seller to travel to the boat with friends with the means to pay the remaining £20k, look at the boat, establish title and if he still wants it pay for it and 'take it away' or secure it as his. All might work out ok before you throw money at third parties.

I would rather have a boat for £40K than throw money at solicitors. £20K soon disappears at the rate of £200 plus VAT an hour