Buying a Yacht in the Mediterranean

[nauticote]

Hi, I'm interested to buy a 40' odd yacht in the Med and keep it there for sailing personally (not chartering out) for 1 or 2 seasons, and then maybe bringing it back to Thailand for good or selling it in the EU.

I have an Irish and British passport, but but am not an EU resident as I reside in Hong Kong. I would really appreciate advice on what is the best option in terms of which country to buy and register a yacht assuming I wish to commence from the Med. I understand I would need to get a VHF licence also for the radio installed in the yacht and not sure what that entails in a Mediterranean country being only an English speaking person?

Been researching this and its really very confusing and off putting.

Many thanks.

Steve

 

[Irish Rover]

I'm an Irish citizen resident in Turkey. I recently bought a Swiss registered boat in Greece VAT not paid and I've registered it Jersey. The Jersey Registry are excellent, very helpful and gave me a lot of advice and completed a lot of the procedure before I paid a penny. You will need to get a tonnage survey done but there are plenty of qualified surveyors all around Europe. Have a look here regarding Jersey registration https://www.gov.je/Travel/MaritimeAviation/BritishRegisterShips/Pages/index.aspx. You will also be able to get your ships radio licence online in 3 minutes from Ofcom.

 

[RupertW]

I'm an Irish citizen resident in Turkey. I recently bought a Swiss registered boat in Greece VAT not paid and I've registered it Jersey. The Jersey Registry are excellent, very helpful and gave me a lot of advice and completed a lot of the procedure before I paid a penny. You will need to get a tonnage survey done but there are plenty of qualified surveyors all around Europe. Have a look here regarding Jersey registration https://www.gov.je/Travel/MaritimeAviation/BritishRegisterShips/Pages/index.aspx. You will also be able to get your ships radio licence online in 3 minutes from Ofcom.

That's great for Turkey but how does Jersey registry affect general travel and stay in the EU?

 

[Irish Rover]

Jersey registration is basically the same as any other non EU flag registration. If you want to keep your boat in the EU you will need to get a Transit Log and you will also have to take the boat out of the EU once every 18 months - if you're in Greece for instance a short hop across to Turkey for a day.

 

[macd]

Jersey registration is basically the same as any other non EU flag registration. If you want to keep your boat in the EU you will need to get a Transit Log and you will also have to take the boat out of the EU once every 18 months - if you're in Greece for instance a short hop across to Turkey for a day.

I recognise your case from earlier threads, Irish Rover. But just in case anyone is tempted to over-generalise from your circumstances, it's perfectly possible that a Jersey- (or any other) flagged vessel is EU VAT paid. If so, the 18 month restriction would not apply. On the other hand, had you (or the OP) been EU resident, your boat would have been ineligible for Temporary Importation. Instead, VAT would have been due on first arrival in the EU. Residence of owner, not flag state, is the crucial criterion.

 

[Tranona]

That's great for Turkey but how does Jersey registry affect general travel and stay in the EU?

Registration has little effect on the movement of the boat within the EU.

The key determinant is VAT payment. If it is EU VAT paid then there are no restrictions at all. The restrictions if any apply to the status of the owners as if s/he is non resident then restrictions may apply as they are governed by the Schengen rules. If the boat is non EU VAT paid then it can enter under the Temporary Import rules, normally for 18 months and restrictions apply to its use and it cannot be sold within the EU without paying VAT. The owner has to be non resident and the boat registered outside the EU.

These are the general rules, so an individual needs to see how they apply in their particular case.

For the OP buying a boat already EU VAT paid is the easiest way of achieving his objective and as a British citizen he can register either in the UK on Part 1 or tin the Channel Islands. Both require a survey and arguably UK registration will cause less hassle although in reality both registrations are equally acceptable. He will need to determine what rights he has personally as regards his freedom of movement.

 

[Irish Rover]

There's no doubt that buying a VAT paid boat is easiest from the point of view of registration and movement. However, there are good bargains to be had on boats which are not VAT paid as the pool of buyers eligible to avail of this facility is limited. As far as I know the VAT rate in Greece at present is 24% which adds considerably to the cost. The boat I bought was, as I said, VAT not paid and in the EU under temporary importation rules on a transit log. The customs authorities didn't seem to have any difficulty about it being sold while in Greece. The customs officer initially assumed I was an EU resident and told me they would issue a 1 month transit log to give me time to take the boat out of the EU. When I satisfied her that I was non EU resident there was no issue with giving an 18 month log.

 

[nauticote]

Many thanks for all your replies, excellent information that has certainly dispelled my disillusionment. Looks like best for me to purchase a cheaper non-VAT paid yacht in the Med (as no real advantage being VAT-paid), register it in Jersey under the Red flag which looks very simple, and get the required VHF licences under OFCA UK (3 minutes....got my portable VHF done now !).

Referrals for reputable, long standing Brokers (like Sunsail who also operate in Thailand where I Bareboat Chartered with them) with access to yachts in various Med countries would be appreciated.

I also found out on the web that registering with a Dutch or Belgium Flag through an Agent is very simple and quick, not requiring an inspection of the yacht (eg tonnage surveyor). Anybody have experiences good/bad with this ?

Cheers

Steve

 

[Irish Rover]

I believe you will not be able to keep a non VAT paid yacht in the EU with a Dutch or Belgian registration. Jersey although British registration is non EU

 

[Tranona]

Many thanks for all your replies, excellent information that has certainly dispelled my disillusionment. Looks like best for me to purchase a cheaper non-VAT paid yacht in the Med (as no real advantage being VAT-paid), register it in Jersey under the Red flag which looks very simple, and get the required VHF licences under OFCA UK (3 minutes....got my portable VHF done now !).

Referrals for reputable, long standing Brokers (like Sunsail who also operate in Thailand where I Bareboat Chartered with them) with access to yachts in various Med countries would be appreciated.

I also found out on the web that registering with a Dutch or Belgium Flag through an Agent is very simple and quick, not requiring an inspection of the yacht (eg tonnage surveyor). Anybody have experiences good/bad with this ?

Cheers

Steve

Be careful buying a non VAT paid boat as in accordance with EU VAT rules if the sale takes place when the boat is physically in the EU it is liable for VAT - even if the buyer is non resident. While you might take a chance if you are buying from a private owner, doubt that Sunsail will sell without charging VAT.

To be legal the boat should be taken out of EU territorial waters so the transaction does not take place within the EU jurisdiction then reenter the EU and apply for Temporary Importation. This may sound pedantic, but officials in some states are notoriously unpredictable, either through lack of real knowledge of the law or just bloody mindedness. Having your boat impounded and facing possible penalties plus paying VAT can really spoil your day.

Buying from one of the big charter operators is a good idea as they will have the capability to deal with these matters. It would probably be easier to buy a boat in Turkey which is outside the EU then apply for TI when you first enter the EU.

With regard to registration, you can register either on the UK Part 1 or Jersey - you qualify for both. The big advantage of these two registers is that they are registers of title which you will find useful when you come to sell. Sunsail would be able to arrange survey and registration.

If you want to explore buying an ex charter yacht then Sunsail mainly have Jeanneaus, Moorings have Beneteaus, both have catamarans as well. I can recommend Kiriacoulis in Athens who mainly have Bavarias, not just in Greece as I bought a boat through them and their management of paperwork when transferring ownership is sound. one thing that is common to all the big charter operators is that you will get clear well documented title to the boat. While they also have a rigorous inspection of boats for sale it is still wise to get an independent survey and then it makes sense to use a UK surveyor who is authorised to do the tonnage survey for registration at the same time.

Hope this helps.

 

[Irish Rover]

I don't wish to contradict Tranona who is clearly very knowledgeable in relation to these matters and generous with his advice. However, having been worried by a similar post on another thread after I bought my VAT not paid boat in Greece, I made a lot of inquiries and all the advice I got indicated that in practice at least there is no obstacle to a private owner selling his VAT not paid boat while it is in the EU. This was confirmed to me by the customs officer in Greece when I visited there earlier this month. The advice even indicated that an EU resident could buy a VAT not paid boat and get a temporary transit log for a month in order to give time to take the boat out of the EU. As a non EU resident they will issue you with a new 18 month transit log. The situation is likely different if you are buying from a company. By coincidence, however, Tranona recommends Kiriacoulis in Athens and I know the boat I bought recently was bought by the previous owner [Swiss nationality and residence] from Kiriacoulis in Athens VAT NOT PAID in 2007 and was kept in Greece for most of the intervening 10 years.

 

[Irish Rover]

If you want to look at boats in Turkey this is where the biggest number are advertised for sale but unfortunately there's no English version of the site https://www.sahibinden.com/kategori/deniz-araclari. [the website name sahibenden means for sale by owner but many of the boats are offered by brokers]. There are a fair few boats in Turkey advertised on apolloduck as well and this would probably be the site favoured by foreign owners selling in Turkey https://www.apolloduck.com/regions.phtml?rid=tr

 

[nauticote]

Be careful buying a non VAT paid boat as in accordance with EU VAT rules if the sale takes place when the boat is physically in the EU it is liable for VAT - even if the buyer is non resident. While you might take a chance if you are buying from a private owner, doubt that Sunsail will sell without charging VAT.

To be legal the boat should be taken out of EU territorial waters so the transaction does not take place within the EU jurisdiction then reenter the EU and apply for Temporary Importation. This may sound pedantic, but officials in some states are notoriously unpredictable, either through lack of real knowledge of the law or just bloody mindedness. Having your boat impounded and facing possible penalties plus paying VAT can really spoil your day.

Buying from one of the big charter operators is a good idea as they will have the capability to deal with these matters. It would probably be easier to buy a boat in Turkey which is outside the EU then apply for TI when you first enter the EU.

With regard to registration, you can register either on the UK Part 1 or Jersey - you qualify for both. The big advantage of these two registers is that they are registers of title which you will find useful when you come to sell. Sunsail would be able to arrange survey and registration.

If you want to explore buying an ex charter yacht then Sunsail mainly have Jeanneaus, Moorings have Beneteaus, both have catamarans as well. I can recommend Kiriacoulis in Athens who mainly have Bavarias, not just in Greece as I bought a boat through them and their management of paperwork when transferring ownership is sound. one thing that is common to all the big charter operators is that you will get clear well documented title to the boat. While they also have a rigorous inspection of boats for sale it is still wise to get an independent survey and then it makes sense to use a UK surveyor who is authorised to do the tonnage survey for registration at the same time.

Hope this helps.

Thank you very much Tranona, really sound advice....."Be careful buying a non VAT paid boat as in accordance with EU VAT rules if the sale takes place when the boat is physically in the EU it is liable for VAT - even if the buyer is non resident".........Will certainly bear this in mind.

Any thoughts on purchasing and registering in Gibraltor....not sure about the VAT implications here?

 

[Tranona]

I don't wish to contradict Tranona who is clearly very knowledgeable in relation to these matters and generous with his advice. However, having been worried by a similar post on another thread after I bought my VAT not paid boat in Greece, I made a lot of inquiries and all the advice I got indicated that in practice at least there is no obstacle to a private owner selling his VAT not paid boat while it is in the EU. This was confirmed to me by the customs officer in Greece when I visited there earlier this month. The advice even indicated that an EU resident could buy a VAT not paid boat and get a temporary transit log for a month in order to give time to take the boat out of the EU. As a non EU resident they will issue you with a new 18 month transit log. The situation is likely different if you are buying from a company. By coincidence, however, Tranona recommends Kiriacoulis in Athens and I know the boat I bought recently was bought by the previous owner [Swiss nationality and residence] from Kiriacoulis in Athens VAT NOT PAID in 2007 and was kept in Greece for most of the intervening 10 years.

That is because Greece does not stick to the Directive as closely as it should. For example it was not until 2002 that it was forced to apply VAT to charter boats when they were sold. The law is different in other EU states (UK for example) and a boat on TI cannot be sold without being liable for VAT (and complying with the RCD).

I don't know what the law in Greece actually says, so cannot really comment on whether the customs ruling is correct. Equally not sure that the one month transit log arrangement is legal. Again not possible in the UK as it only applies to new boats, and the concession (which applies to all including EU residents) has recently been tightened to stop abuses by placing the onus on the dealer or builder to ensure that the boat leaves the EU. Without the evidence that the boat has left the supplier remains liable for the VAT, so it is common for the buyer to either pay a deposit to cover the VAT or provide a bank guarantee.

The Transit Log system is unique to Greece and not connected to TI, nor any other EU regulation and has been a running sore for years as being discriminatory.

 

[Tranona]

Thank you very much Tranona, really sound advice....."Be careful buying a non VAT paid boat as in accordance with EU VAT rules if the sale takes place when the boat is physically in the EU it is liable for VAT - even if the buyer is non resident".........Will certainly bear this in mind.

Any thoughts on purchasing and registering in Gibraltor....not sure about the VAT implications here?

Gibraltar is outside the EU for VAT purposes and you could buy a boat there and use it in the EU under TI.

Just a small correction, prompted by irish rover on registration. TI conditions require both the owner to be a non resident and the boat to be registered outside the EU,. This rules out UK registration so Jersey (or Guernsey) as possibilities.

 

[Irish Rover]

That is because Greece does not stick to the Directive as closely as it should. For example it was not until 2002 that it was forced to apply VAT to charter boats when they were sold. The law is different in other EU states (UK for example) and a boat on TI cannot be sold without being liable for VAT (and complying with the RCD).

I don't know what the law in Greece actually says, so cannot really comment on whether the customs ruling is correct. Equally not sure that the one month transit log arrangement is legal. Again not possible in the UK as it only applies to new boats, and the concession (which applies to all including EU residents) has recently been tightened to stop abuses by placing the onus on the dealer or builder to ensure that the boat leaves the EU. Without the evidence that the boat has left the supplier remains liable for the VAT, so it is common for the buyer to either pay a deposit to cover the VAT or provide a bank guarantee.

The Transit Log system is unique to Greece and not connected to TI, nor any other EU regulation and has been a running sore for years as being discriminatory.

I don't doubt you but I'm really curious about this. I had a look here https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ur-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk#section5 but couldn't see anything about selling while on temporary importation. I don't suppose you have a link to the relevant UK regulation.

 

[Leonidas]

I have a 42 ft boat vat paid SSR red ensign currently in Greece ashore. any interest?

 

[Irish Rover]

If I was in the market again I’d certainly rather be looking at boats offered or recommended by forumites than dealing with clueless, useless brokers that so many seem to have encountered.

 

[Leonidas]

I am not a dealer. Just a genuine forumite who has acquired another boat!

 

[Irish Rover]

I am not a dealer. Just a genuine forumite who has acquired another boat!

I assumed that to be the case and that’s why I’d be more happy looking at boats such as yours if I was in the market