Buying a yacht in Italy

[ScubasHP]

Dear fellow members,
I represent a EU company interesed in buying a yacht in Italy from a private owner. Company is not an Italian resident. We agreed that previous owner is deregistrating the boat in Italy and we intend to register it in another EU country.
Now we are told, that we need to get an Italian fiscal code in order to make this deal! Nobody is able to explain why, we are not Italian residents, the boat goes to export, seller is a private person - vat non payer. So, why a heck should we become an Italian tax payers in order to export a yacht out from Italy? It would be completely against everything we know about EU taxation.
Please help with your knowledge and experience. Otherwise we start to think about fraud risk and unclean play.
Thank you all in advance!

 

[Concerto]

Bounce

 

[alahol2]

Are you being asked to prove that VAT has already been paid on the yacht within the EU?

 

[ScubasHP]

Not exactly. Vat has been paid as the first and only owner is Italian citizen - a private person and he bought this yacht using leasing. Problem is that I am asked to get Italian fiscal code to buy and export this yacht out of Italy. And I do not understand why. So I am asking you guys if someone has similar experience or knowledge about Italian legislation.

 

[pvb]

Vat has been paid as the first and only owner is Italian citizen - a private person and he bought this yacht using leasing.

Can you be certain there's no debt on the boat? Might be worth employing an Italian lawyer to sort the paperwork.

 

[ScubasHP]

No, I cant. Thats why I insisted that owner deregistrates it before final payment. As far as I understand, if there are any debts or seizures or mortgages on the boat, it wont be possible to deregistrate.

 

[macd]

There are several European countries in which it's necessary to have a tax number before conducting certain types of transactions, so there's nothing necessarily sinister about the information you've been given. But you're certainly right to seek clarification. Can't the broker help?
Failing that, maybe Roberto of this parish can shed some light? (I've just PM'd him, so he may be along soon.)

 

[ScubasHP]

You absolutely right! Broker had to explain and to work on this. If he would speak English... I'm a bit shocked actually. How can you be eyb certified broker with no English knowledge.. Thats the reason why I seek for advice here before employing any Italian lawyers. Thank you guys, youre great.

 

[macd]

Where in Italy is the boat? I ask only because it might be simpler to conduct the transaction in another EU country.

 

[ScubasHP]

Where in Italy is the boat? I ask only because it might be simpler to conduct the transaction in another EU country.

It is located in Greece but under Ita flag.

 

[macd]

These two links might be helpful. Neither is about an Italian boat in Greece, though:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-66733.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f128/italy-flag-de-registration-132296.html

 

[Boat441]

Suggest you seek advice from a maritime solicitor that is familiar with eu and Italian law. There a numerous ones and easily found.

 

[Roberto]

No, I cant. Thats why I insisted that owner deregistrates it before final payment. As far as I understand, if there are any debts or seizures or mortgages on the boat, it wont be possible to deregistrate.

Hello,

apart from debt and seizures, there is also the constraint that there are no unpaid social contributions, for example a paid skipper whose wages have not been paid, or unpaid contributions, etc, these cases might lead to some legal blocking of the legal status of the boat (sorry I do not know the equivalent law terms in the British system) so the owner has first to pay all dues, then he can register the sale of the boat. Ask for "INPS declaration", INPS being the administration of everything "social" wages etc.

I cannot see how the fiscal code might interfere... btw it has not much to do with taxes though, it's a sort of personal number one Italian citizen uses in his/her relationships with the Administration (taxes too), nothing more. It does not indicate at all you are a fiscal resident in Italy.
Depending whom you talk to in the Administration, sometimes they just need a number to fill in a case in the paperwork, why not try your company registration number, or something similar..

As you have suspected, I think the best way by far is for the previous owner to de-register the boat, so he will take care of all the paperwork (to you as a foreigner would most probably mean hiring a local lawyer), then sign the bill of sale. With the bill of sale and the radiation document you can then register the boat wherever you like (and you are sure there are no past dues on her).

The second hand market in Italy is rather depressed at the moment, there are a lot of people from abroad buying yachts there and apart from the radiation process, there is no particular hassle with regards to trans-national transactions between other countries.

regards

 

[alan]

I think Roberto already said this but the Italian Fiscal Code is a bit like our NI number. I had an Italian Fiscal Code before I became I resident in Italy. You need to give your fiscal code to get a SIM card for your phone for example. You need to give your fiscal code to buy a car. In fact it is the most common box you have to fill in on any official forms - it does not mean you are registering to pay tax or contributions in Italy [why should you, hardly anyone does ]. It is not as sinister as it sounds. As to whether you actually need it to buy a boat - I don't know; its probably a case of there being a space on some form which needs filling in and the bureaucrats don't know what to do if you don't have a "Codice Fiscale" !!!!

Good luck.

Alan.

 

[duncan99210]

When we bought a SIM in Italy all the shop wanted was our passport number which went into the tax number box.

 

[marcot]

When I (italian citizen an resident) sold my de-registered italian boat to a dutch citizen, no tax code for him was needed. If the sale happens before the deregistrAtion, you need the tax code as the bill of sale is notary act.

 

[danielefua]

I can add my experience to what already explained in the last posts. Once I had a US visiting professor come to Italy for just giving a lesson at my university. In order to have the travel expenses refunded by the university he needed a "Codice fiscale" (CF) and eventually got it; in fact he just applied for it, obtained the number on the phone, gave it to the university office, cashed the money, and finally left for the US. That was it; he never paid any tax and never had any hassle from the Italian revenue service since. As written before it is just a stupid number but, without it, the stupid computer forms will not go through. If you need the 16 digits of your unique CF you do not even need to apply to anyone (although it is probably unlawful!!! ); there are computer programs that will compose it after you enter: 1) family name, 2) given name 3) gender, 3) date of birth 4) city or state of birth if not Italy. For example see: http://www.nonsolocap.it/codice-fiscale/
I tried it and already found what you may have to enter in the "Luogo di nascita o stato estero" field: "GRAN BRETAGNA E IRLANDA DEL NORD".

By the way I had a similar experience in US regarding the Social Security Number; you can hardly do anything without it.

Daniel