Buying a secondhand boat - offers? broker markup? relocating it?

[Brierley]

We want to buy a secondhand boat but are uncertain of protocol and don't want to offend anyone! We bought our current trailer sailer direct, had seen several and knew that the asking price was fair. We offered a little below the asking price and got a slight discount but the seller wasn't budging far and we knew it was a seller's market for that boat at the time. It was also easy to transport to its new home once we'd purchased a suitable car!

Is it usual to make an offer substantially below the asking price (10%+ reduction) if the boat is well-maintained and the only thing 'wrong' is that you will need to fit some extra toys? Presumably any offer is 'subject to survey' anyway?

Also, what kind of percentage do brokers put on prices? We have seen 4 or 5 boats that we are interested in, all the same make & size, approx the same age /kit /maintenance, yet there seems to be no correlation in price between private sellers and brokers. In fact the most expensive boat by far is from a private seller whose asking price is 30% higher than the least expensive boat (also private sale) and the boat doesn't seem to have any additional kit or new engine /sails /fancy electronics that could possibly justify the price hike. Does location make that much difference? The most expensive boat is on the South Coast, the others are South Wales and East Anglia.
We have also seen similar boats advertised on the internet located in Greece, Turkey, France etc with a similar variation in prices that doesn't seem to bear any correlation to private vs broker sale or value for money when kit lists are compared.

It looks as though we are going to be spending several weekends between now and the new season traipsing round the country to look at various vessels (well, it beats Crimbo shopping despite the mileage!). There seem to be plenty of these boats about, and some of the sellers have reduced their prices already. We are not in a desperate rush but it would be nice to have a sale agreed by Easter. Some of the brokers have said they expect far more boats to be available in the Spring. If it takes until late summer, we won't be distraught! We are also happy to sail back to the Solent from various locations, though it may well have to be in stages.

If we found the ideal boat in say Scotland, that would take us too long to sail back down South (we both work fulltime), is there any kind of service that would deliver a boat overland or would we be looking at hiring a delivery skipper?

Thanks

Brierley

 

[cpedw]

You've asked a number of questions there and you may well get some different answers but I'll try to deal with some points.
Rule 1 - be thick skinned. We made an offer that was about 10% below the asking price, then after a survey we suggested reducing the price further. The seller refused to have anything more to do with us. That's his prerogative, but the boat was still for sale 6 months later, while we had bought a similar boat for less than we had offered him. Many of us in the UK are unfamiliar with haggling but it's the way of second hand boat buying.

Prices are set by the seller. A good broker will offer advice about the state of the market but the seller may well be figuring Purchase Price + all he's spent + something for inflation + rose tinted specs. That may well be totally unrealistic, especially just now when I think the market is very slack, even allowing for the season.

You need to spell out that the offer is "subject to survey". It's not at all unusual but it won't be assumed if you don't say so. Some sellers are realistic - the surveyor finds faults that weren't obvious, the seller should be happy to reduce the price by half the cost of remedying those faults, but he's not obliged to and neither are you obliged to stick to the original price if things are found, though you will have paid all the costs of the survey.

Brokers generally charge around 7% I think, but that's a matter for the seller. The price quoted is what you pay; what the seller through a broker gets is less, since the seller didn't have the hassle of making leaflets, listing details, showing tyre kickers round ... (some will disagree strongly about what you get from a broker - there's brokers and there's brokers).

Road transport is quite commonplace, though expensive. I spent about £1k to take a 33ft from Beaulieu to Oban in 2003. It doesn't change much with boat size from bigger than a trailer sailer to too big for road transport. It can be cheaper if you wait for the haulier to be able to do a matching load each way (there's a technical term for it but I can't remember it).
Sea delivery is also possible but I have no experience.

I have twice spent a good part of a winter browsing mags and (2nd time) websites followed by major excursions to find eventually rather good boats, in Essex and Beaulieu, to transfer back to Scotland. Enjoy the process, investigate strange boatyards, explore muddy places. Don't rush the buying or you will pay too much.

Derek

 

[owen]

the market has a number of boats which do not sell. if you watch over a period you will note the same boats being relisted or remainn on brokers books for years. sellers need to be more realistic even if its painful. its much better to accept a lower selling price , get moving and buy your next boat, and barter that one down hopefully.
COI both a seller and buyer at present

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

I've got a nice 33 footer in Gosport going cheap! What size are you looking for?

 

[MarkGrubb]

I think it's a case of doing your homework and probably a lot like buy a house some respects. Have a good look round at different boats in your price bracket and get a good idea what you can buy for your money, then you will have a better idea if certain boats are overpriced/underpriced or realistic.

 

[Tranona]

cpedw covers most of the points. I would re-inforce the view that generally private sellers have higher expectations of the value of their boat than is real. They also think they can do better by cutting out the broker - but the latter performs an economic function of putting an individual seller in touch with a large number of buyers and removing lots of hassle from the transaction. This is how they earn their keep.
At this time of year sellers tend to set a high asking price on the basis that there is still 4/5 months to sell before next season. Prices tend to fall in the new year.

In setting a price range there are boundaries for particular classes look at the range of prices for Westerly Centaurs for example. £2k (about 15% of average) covers the lot. On the other hand more individual boats where there is not a regular market are more difficult to value. Kit usually makes little difference, all you need to do is establish what you value and try to get a boat that has the kit. Good example was that I looked at two Moody 376s in Plymouth last year. Almost identical prices and both well equipped (although with different range of kit). However one was knackered (owner had not seen it for a year and obviously from the way he described it thought it was the same boat he bought 5 years previously). The other was all together, put the beers in the fridge and ready to go. Sold the next day at a price right in the middle of the range.

So draw up your list of what you are looking for, look at lots of boats and try to optimise your choice. Haggle a bit cos it makes you feel good, but genuine sellers want genuine buyers.

Boat prices in the Med vary because of three things. Condition varies, some buyers are absolutely desparate, and many are not VAT paid (for various reasons). Shipping back from Med is a £3-5k hit.

Best of luck

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it usual to make an offer substantially below the asking price (10%+ reduction) if the boat is well-maintained and the only thing 'wrong' is that you will need to fit some extra toys? Presumably any offer is 'subject to survey' anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've said this before but:

During the three years I was looking for a boat which, (unless something happened to change my mind), was going to be a Moody 44, I got to know that anything around £120K was priced about right, and anything over was expensive, (subject to extras such as generator/watermaker/solar panels etc.), and anything under was a bit of a deal, (subject to condition).

So I dont think it is necessarily as simple as offering 10% under asking price.... it's more to do with what you think a particular boat is worth, then doing the best deal you can.

 

[RobWales]

You never know the vendor's circumstances! he may be desperate for cash! therefore its worth offering a low price even circa 25/30% below asking as you never know the answer until you try.
I have tried this on various occasions when changing my boat and have come up trumps once....,and that was through a massive broker who put my silly (his words) to the seller and the seller accepted (broker was gobsmacked).
Good luck.

 

[savageseadog]

I pretty sure there will be a mini flood of cheap boats soon. There are a lot of people hurting financially and loans are going to be harder to get and will cost more. Berthing and storage prices are astronmic along the south coast and that is a good incentive to sell too.

 

[jsl]

RF M44: This is interesting, but you don't reveal the big secret. How did you know that £120k was about right? Was it just the average price? Or the maximum you felt inclined to offer? How would I, as an ignorant punter, know if the whole market was overpriced by some huge but consistent figure? I have a suspicion that selling prices in the UK are a long, long way below asking prices, much more than 10%.

 

[poter]

Lots of good advice above. Can you give us some idea of what your after|?

My 10p worth - If like myself you are prepared to put some work in then there are some brilliant buys out there my 1974 Dufour 35 - after a lot of haggling was 18k, ok I have spent a bit of dosh in doing her up but she was in the water & more or less ready to go.
You can get bargains but you have to know what you are looking at & if you are capable, & have the time, think of doing most of the TLC/Upgrade work yourself.

If she needs rewiring, which in most cases boats of a certain age will require, & you have basic common sense & are able to read a book, then its not too daunting.

I don’t do engines but I am quite capable of changing bits, i.e. water impeller, filters etc. But I think you will find that most diesel engines will give you good service, its the add on bits that will need to be looked at, The important point about doing it yourself is - You get to know your boat inside out! You would be surprised how many boating people do not have the first idea where the bilge pump or seacocks. are.

Mooring a reasonable size yacht in UK is a nightmare IMHO, moorings are difficult & expensive, yes there are the occasional swinging mooring up for sale & you may be lucky, but Marinas are outrageous prices. To give you a comparison in France they are around a 5th of the price.

Prices for Yachts are a whole different subject but I would say for boat in reasonable condition offer around 15 to 20% less, subject to Survey - ALWAYS subject to survey!
Check the market on the type of Yacht you want to buy & compare prices, always go & view as many boats as you can. Now is a slack time & you should go to the brokerages & have a look around.

Let us know what yachts you are looking at & I am sure you will get advice on here.

Good luck

poter

 

[poter]

Yes you are right, there is a lot of emotion in boat buying/selling & sellers invariably overprice there own yachts, perhaps more so in UK - we are an emotional lot really.

To judge if a Yacht is about the right price I would, & I am sure Richard would have done the same, set a budget, look at the market here & abroad & make a reasonably informed value judgment, which after all, is how we would buy any goods!

A yacht does carry its own mystique & sometimes you get it because you fall for it or its the most beautiful thing, in your eyes, on the water. Then you just pays the price.

poter.

 

[weaver_fish]

Here's a tip. Try getting some old copies of PBO and call up classified advertisers from a few months ago..... they might have lost hope and be willing to do a very smart deal for a call outof the blue.

 

[PeterGibbs]

You've done the most important thing of all - in my book - settled on a design that pleases you. As a result you have a piece of paper culled from back editions of the mags, showing the range of prices being asked for this design.

Now you slog round, discarding knackered editions, and offer usually about 10% below the asking - WHEN that asking price is in line with the market.

As others have said, it's amazing how out of touch/optimistic some of our numbers are about the market value of their boats. You don't want to spend a penny more than is required.
Feelings don't come into it - it's business, and if a vendor goes shirty, so be it.

When buying a pre-owned vessel I went heavily by the impression created by the owner, as well as the boat. Caring and considerate beats shabby and negligent. Why be attracted by what looks like a deal, when there's an above average chance you'll discover something not to your advantage when you've taken possession?

I wouldn't say the south coast was always off limits for the value oriented purchaser, but a glance at the listings will show prices there are higher...wonder why?

Good hunting - it's turning into a buyers' market.

PWG

 

[Tranona]

Expanding on poter's post - For many the purchase price is only the start of the costs, and at the lower/older end of the range should almost be treated as an entry cost to be recouped when you get out/move on. My example of the Westerly is an obvious one. The difference beween the best and the worst (ignoring the odd basket case) is about £2000, less than the running costs for a year. Pick the best and not only should your on-going costs be lower, but you stand a better chance of getting back most of what you paid for it. Over a typical 4/5 years ownership of a second hand yacht the extra £2k pales into insignificance.

Buying a boat needing work is a different kettle of fish. You need to know what you are doing and do it yourself. Watch Sara Beeney Property Ladder - same principles apply to doing up boats. You can end up with spending more than buying a good one in the first place.

 

[Caer Urfa]

As a professional negotiator work on the Turkish principle, you want to buy it, they want to sell it, it's only a matter of the price, and yes learn what the market value is for the type of boat, price for a rough one needing work and price for a good one , ANY boats you buy will need money spending on it, normaly sooner rather than later!!
Never go off photo's( which were sometimes taken years before), never listen to salesman,(I am one, but not selling boats) we only want to sell it, deal with the sellar direct.
The word 'research' is paramount, find out everything about the boat you want, ask people can you look in their's, ask what problems they have had, many will tell you the price payed.
I watched my present boat for 6 months for sale, 3 months after my initial offer she was still for sale.
Alway's buy subject to survey, it's your next discount but be fair.
Go for a diesel engine whatever you buy,pay more for a one with less hours on it, spend most time looking at the engine and hull, everything else is replaceable, don't be put off asking lots of questions it's your money.
Road transport no problem, cheapest is to ask transport companies for a 'Back load' within a reasonble time, I waited 3 weeks and save £200.00,always go for a company who only move boats.
Happy hunting
Mike

 

[FAITIRA]

Normally the broker does not "mark" the boat up, the vendor decides what he wants after paying the broker and then names his price. Then you make your offer, suject to survey, depending on the result of that, you negotiate. I f you reach an agreement with the vendor, then it,s up to him and the broker to negotiate the brokerage fee, I have been the seller, acceted a reduced price, subject!, to the broker accepting a reduced fee. Delivery is not necessarily that expensive by sea, agree a price per mile, there are heaps of us do it on the black (for friends) just make sure the insurance know about the trip.

 

[Roadhog]

Just been through this process. I did my research found the benchmark prices for condition year etc. Spoke to owners dealers about probs to watch for on my choice. Found a nice example which was overpriced. Spoke to the owner, told him of the price of others the same type (proof on the web so he know you are not BS'ing) Found if he was flexible and open to offers... then made an offer through the broker. After estimating what the boat should actually be priced at with the broker (comparison of others for sale) I made an offer 10% less than that. There was some hagling over about 10 days, then finally the owner decided to accept.

If there are plenty of a particular boat for sale, then its a buyers market and sellers (advised by their brokers!) will realise this. Therefore at this time of year its worth holding out.

As has been said, definitely subject to survey and also make sure you list out with your firm offer the gear and equipment thats included. "Fixtures" you see on board may not always be so...! The other things to check are financial ownership and VAT etc... but assume you know all that!

 

[fishermantwo]

I make a bit of a hobby out of researching my next yacht. For the last 3 years or so I have studied the market and in that time the same boats have been for sale in some cases. One thing I have noticed with those boats stuck on the market is that they invariably have a single cylinder diesel, smaller than what is now considered average hp. If you can live with this engine set up, some decent bargains can be had. Also some really good boats with what is now considered oddball engines like Arona, probably nothing wrong with them though.

 

[wotayottie]

I once did the exercise of phoning up all the people who had offered for sale (YM small ads) the particular boat I was considering - during the previous 3 years. I found that less than half had actually sold them, and the half concerned were the ones selling with prices at the lower end of the spectrum. The point being, that advertised prices are not a good guide to realised prices since all of the sellers who commented said the deal had been done at a lower than advertised price.

You cant really generalise about discounts except to say that 10 to 15% would be a reasonable opening bid. So far I have managed 15%, 21% and 10% below advertised on my purchases, and given 15%, 5% on my sales. All purchases and all sales were private.

Area of the country matters to a surprising degree. Based in the west, we found we got buyres coming from the east and from scotland, but no one from the south coast seemed to want to consider buying alsewhere. So you can expect generally a better deal away from the Hamble etc.