buying a liveaboard boat

[bryanandwendy]

Wer'e in the early planning stage of living aboard, initially in the med, but then maybe going further afield as we gain experience and the wanderlust strikes! We intend to live on the boat all year round, probably for around 5~7 years or until we can't do it any more! (we're both in our 40's) We are looking at all sorts of boats, in the 40~45 foot range, but now really need advice from those that are doing it- the choice, and therefore the opportunity for a major mistake, is huge!
The issues we are grappling with are: Steel or GRP? How do mainstream production boats stand upto 24/7 useage(specifically Hunter Legend 466 type if anybody is using one. We've also looked at Southerly 135-how much of an advantage is a lifting keel actually? -we may want to visit the carribean eventually.
Also, if anybody has any upto date info on actual living costs in the Med, we'd appreciate your feedback!
Iv'e thousands of other questions, but this will have to do for now! Thanks in advance,
B&W

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[tcm]

I think your choices will be generally seen as towards the somewhat lightweight end of the market, perhaps too-light, and i wouldn't choose a legend altho they do look nice and comfy inside.

The 24/7 aspect is not very relevant to longevity - most of the time you are sitting quietly on tthe thing and failure of many items is almost more likely with lack of use rather than overuse. I would look hard at secondhand and sturdy rather than new and sparkling - the sparkliness will (depressingly) go very quickly whereas with a sturdier older boat one can quickly make it better than it was when purchsed - cheaper and less depressing imho.

I'm afraid that you do get what you pay for. Steel will be slower but long-lasting. GRP makes for a cheaper and lighter boat - good that it goes fast, not so good if it hits things.

I supose it rather hard to specify "living costs in the med" as though it a theme park with admission prices. It is not hard to go ashore and burn £hundredss every day in the cote d'azur in summer. But at anchor (even in the cote d'azur) without smoking or drinking you can live for quite while on almost nothing at all except food, and in warmer weather you don't need too much of that. More info on your lifestyle needed!



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[bryanandwendy]

Thanks for the info.
About our proposed lifestyle:
We are looking for a simple, independant lifestyle, minimising expenditure wherever possible. The appeal of living aboard is not just the sailing, but seeing new places, and more importantly. meeting like minded people and sharing the experience. We'd like to minimise our summer use of marinas, preferring to use natural anchorages wqherever possible (we'll probably be heading for the east med)
Wendy is a trained chef, and enjoys cooking, so eating out will be a rare occasion, whilst I'm extremely practical, and able to undertake just about all aspects of maintenance and repair. We do however enjoy the local vino and associated social life!
So, we don't mind spending money on the boat up front to achieve our desired level of independance, I guess this means to us things like generator, watermaker, a lot of storage space, plus a degree of comfort, so we need something around 45' (Thus the Legend idea!) We have a budget of about £150k
I personally like the idea of steel (2nd hand), as absolute sailing performance is not critical to us, (who needs speed when there are so few deadlines?) as a heavier displacement hull will be beter able to safely carry all the kit we will need. The downside which does concern me is the increased maintenance, but then what about osmosis on a 2nd hand GRP vessel which may be upto 15 years old by the time we become landlocked again?
Being practical, we could, as you suggest, buy something which requires updating and renovation, this is appealing, however we both have demanding jobs, and don't want to enter a project which we can't deliver in reasonable time. We also don't want to buy somebody else's problems!
Ideas/guidance and inspiration would be welcome!

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[ccscott49]

There are two boats on the market at this time, absolutely ideal for your purposes, both fisher 46`s with tall rig and bowsprit! One at ancasta and one at Berthons, the berthon one needs a bout 30k spending on it and they want 169k for it, but that price is way to high and very negotiable, the other is 130k and also has the benefiot of a bow thruster, this seems a good price, laying in the channel islands but VAT paid. Have a look at them! at least the broadsheets. The one at berthoins has everything you would need, including genny and water maker. IMHO an ideal boat for liveaboard, I may be interested in one myself!

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[BrianReynolds]

Hi Bryanandwendy
We are nearly doing what you suggest. Beware buying too big a boat (to much to handle in a breeze, higher costs, etc.) Don't belive you can always anchor in the Med in summer as the weather can be very changeable - have had to move into harbour in the night when wind direction/strength changes quite often. We have gone for "old" but quality heavy end ie Hallberg Rassy 42 which is comfortable if not fast, spacious and well designed and practical. I would not worry about a watermaker(have adequate tankage in the first place). We hafe found it difficult to find marinas to leave the boat in for 1 - 2 months when back in the UK, Currently in Italy going east slowly.
E mail me if you want more info.
Brian
BReyno2087@aol.com

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[charles_reed]

About the smallest boat for two to liveaboard is 29'+ LWL. Note I specify waterline length as overhangs can make a boat appear larger without any corresponding increase in stowage.

There is little to choose between GRP and steel, but the majority of world-girdler liveboards that I have met have steel boats.
Aluminium boats are also quite popular, but there are major challenges to do with electrolysis.

I'd suggest going for the boat with the highest LWL/LOA ratio. You pay marina dues on LOA but it's LWL that gives you storage/speed.

If you're intending to do the Med, I'd suggest you look at a large engine (most boats sold in UK are grossly underengined) and tankage in excess of 100l diesel and 200l of water.
Ground tackle & ease of anchoring are important, you'll find that it's not only more economic to anchor, marinas in high season are often full and you'll have no option.

Look to good heads/shower arrangements, and a good galley, personally I find a decent LPG stove with 2 burners, grill and thermostatic oven, all with flame-failure to be better than alcohol, paraffin or diesel cookers all of which systems have major drawbacks.
For ease of use in the Med, it's ideal to have a wlk-through stern and plenty of cockpit area with a bimini to shade you.
If you're going to winter on the boat you'll need heating (temperatures are little different to the S of UK). I threw away the Eberspacher and rely on a mains fan-heater.

I'd suggest not purchasing in the UK, prices are unsustainably high. The Netherlands for a steel boat and France for Ben/Bav/Jan in GRP are probably best prices. If you want to look for HR and other suchlike Scandanavian boats hunt round in Germany and Scandanavia.

Bowthrusters are unneccessary unless you're looking at 60'+ loa. They give inexperiencedboat handlers the illusion of safety when they'd be better off biting the bullet and learning boat-handling properly. Probably the ideal size of boat is just under 12m loa - berthing charges and availability are best up to that loa, and the creeping gigantism in boat loa will make this length and below even more easily parked.

Having a retractable keel is a major boon, it allows visiting places other boats don't go, so getting away from the madding crowd and getting to the unspoilt.

For my money the W Med is a considerably inferior cruising ground to the Atlantic coasts, someone once told me it was only there to get through to the rest of the Med. I now understand what he meant.

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[pragmatist]

Living costs

Have you read the article by the couple who sail Abemama - mainly to the Med for 6 months a year (PBO last month I think) ? Excellent breakdown of costs - good ideas on saving money while eating and drinking well.

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[charles_reed]

Re: Living costs

That's Colin Jones, who has a 26' (?) motor sailer and used to teach Romance languages at tertiary level. He has the advantage of multi-linguism in his dealings with the locals.

I've found that I can make do on €300 a month - 5 nights on the hook to 1 in the marina. Winter in a marina @ about €550 a quarter.

I leave the boat over July/August and come back to the UK where living costs treble. Last year the 2 months cost €250 for 9 weeks. I'm also back in UK over the Christmas period - in total about 4/12 months are in the UK. .

From that I exclude all fares but the cost covers food, drink, mobile top-up, fuel and marina fees.
If you allow €300/head you'll be able to go out for the odd meal, which is what I budget when wife joins me.

Onto that you need to add your boat-repair fund, which is very much a function of age, build quality and your handiness.

Asking about costs is perhaps misleading - most people spend what they can afford. I know of one chap who's living off his NI pension for ALL his costs.

Cost of living (in ascending order with UK comparison in % terms)

Portugal (45%)
Atlantic Spain (50%)
Sardinia (60%)
Mediterranean Spain (65%), Mallorca is in a league of its own for overpricing
Mainland Italy (75%)
Mediterranean France (80%)

Can't talk 1st hand about N Africa, but understand it's cheaper than Portugal.

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[bryanandwendy]

Hi everybody, thanks for you replies- it's all going into the mental database! We are not exactly ready to buy right away, house to sell first, however we looked at the Fisher- looks great,- but 4 heads? seems a little over the top! Otherwise looking like a great boat, makes me want to circumnavigate instead of doing the Med!
In terms of where to look in Holland- is there a particular site etc- iv'e scoured the net but seem to find relatively little in terms of good liveaboard boats. Lifting keels-I'm only aware of Northshore and Feeling- are there any others out there worth recommending? With regard to heads/shower/galley, this really must be good for the yacht to pass Wendy's entry qualifications!
Cost of living- I saw the article, but it's good to get info from those doing it today-thanks for the relative costs, looks good to me- is greece likely to be even cheaper?
Thanks again for your time- most appreciated
Bryan And Wendy

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[Ric]

I sail in the Med on a 32 foot boat on my tod. If I were sailing two, I would get about 40 foot, though 45 foot is fine.

I'd advise buying a boat that is already in the Med and set up for Med sailing. A boat that is good in British waters is not terribly comfortable in the Med. You spend a lot of time swimming, so should get something with bathing ladders, sugar-scoop transom that you can sit on dangling legs in water, a stern shower. It is damned hot so you need a big bimini that stays in place while sailing (a sheet over the boom at anchor is not enough). Get hatches that open forwards to scoop the breeze. Get opening portholes in the hull sides as they make th biggest difference in getting a breeze through the boat (I think these are illegal under the namby pamby laws in UK). Get a fin-keeler as they will give the most fun in the Med and are relatively easy to handle in crowded marinas. If you are relatively inexperienceded and are looking at 45 foot, you might want to consider a bow thruster as it will make parking a lot easier. I would avoid steel - lots of maintenance, horrible to walk on deck in bare feet, hurts like hell when you stub your toes/bang your head, drips with condensation all the time inside. Plastic is nice and friendly to touch, doesn't get baking hot under the sun, easy to repair if you bash it.

I would concur with what somebody else suggested - buy something second-hand that you can improve rather than something new that you worry about spoiling. I would tend to avoid northern european boats for the reasons I allude to above - Moodys, HRs etc are great boats but designed for cold water. Avoid like the plague those yank abomination Hunters. I would consider something like a Jeanneau which will provide all that I suggest above for a very reasonable price. There is a Jeanneau 40DS (deck saloon) which is a very nice live abroad boat and is also a very good sail, and there are some good second-hand ones available on the market now

You can live-abroad very cheaply in the Med if you don't stay in ports in the summer. Food is about the same as UK in western Med and lots cheaper in the East. Booze is much cheaper if you buy in supermarkets and massively expensive if you buy in bars. You don't need any clothes really. The biggest part of the budget is keeping your boat in order especially as every place you stop is full of yacht chandleries which I find impossible to walk past without spending dosh. For two of you if you have a boat in good order that does not require endless spending you could get by on E1000 a month, be quite comfortable on E1500, and be absolutely loaded on E2000.

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[snowleopard]

it's worth bearing in mind that long-term cruising can be a bit hard on your topsides, more from the actions of others. it can be very stressful when you have anchored in a tight spot then some frenchman comes and parks between you and the nearest boat and refuses to move. i'm told that pointing to your hull and calling out "regardez - acier" gets you more space. conversely, with a nice gelcoat finish you'll always be worried.

steel is of course good if you expect to be among reefs or in commercial harbours a lot but remember that the sail area to haul a 40ft steel hull around will become very hard work in a mistral with just the two of you.

i'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet but you do get a lot more living space for your money with a cat and a slow cat can hold its own with a fast monohull. you say you like the social life- we had a party on board in lagos with 25 people and we weren't too crowded though we did notice the waterline scum was 6 inches up the topsides in the morning!

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[Bejasus]

I am looking to do something similar and am starting to try to plan now, for when last 2 kids buzz off to Uni. Not intending to sell up though, rent out house instead. However, I am looking along the lines of a Nauticat motor sailer, ketch rigged preferably, for the sail handling. Did think of 44, but expensive berthing over 12 mtrs, then 38, LOA 11.5 m but bowsprit over that so may be charged more. The 331 is a possibility, and the one we saw at this years LIBS, has a cracking layout for the Med, better than the one we saw at SIBS. IMHO
Also, at this time, we are both novice sailers. Trying to do my ICC and Dayskipper this year.

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[Ric]

h00, buying a boat if you are not terribly experienced is a very tricky business, as everybody will give you different advice according to what their choice of a perfect boat is. But you made a factually erroneous statement that a ketch will allow easier sail handling. This may have been true in the past when sails were far heavier and roller-reefing was not so commonplace. But for a boat in the size range you are looking at, this is no longer an issue. A sloop (or cutter) of 40-44ft will have sails just as easy to handle as a ketch. Indeed, I bet you could take a reef single-handed in a sloop of that size far easier than in a ketch as you've one less sail to adjust.

I'd also take issue with your choice of getting a motor-sailor, but that is too much my personal preference showing through so I will restrain myself...

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[Nich39Nige]

Ric,

Reefing is very simple on a Ketch....just drop the main and sail under Genoa and mizzen!.

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[Bejasus]

Appreciate the comments Ric. Nauticat is my personal preference as I love the looks, also the layout. Motorsailer is for the days when there is no wind and am on along leg to somewhere else.. Also easier for swmbo when I am away every other month or so.

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[Bejasus]

Although as stated I am a novice, this was one of the things that appealed to me. Just drop the main use the mizzen and as much genoa rolled out as required.

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[ccscott49]

This is called Jib and jigger, a very good way of doing it. If she has a self tacking staysail, even better.

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[Chris_Robb]

Motor sailor is also for the days when its blowing hooly on the nose.

I am just selling a Victory 40 - I can pm you some details or look at
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.myboatdetails.com/corsair>http://www.myboatdetails.com/corsair</A>

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[bryanandwendy]

Hi Ric,
I hadn't considered a jeaneau, when i've looked at them, i've always thought them to seem flimsily built- however I'll have a 2nd look. What's wrong with hunters?

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[bryanandwendy]

We'll also be going in a few years, I think we need to buy the boat about 18 months beforehand to familiarise, debug, modify etc, altough if we do buy in the Med, we'll probably leave it till later. We are also doing day skipper at nightschool this year to get the all important ICC!

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